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Post by Admin on Apr 6, 2008 10:17:07 GMT -5
Please let us know what you think!
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Post by David on Apr 6, 2008 14:01:29 GMT -5
Another valiant effort, Chuck! I have the same concerns with this issue that I had with the last: characterization and dialogue, but this is still and all early in your run, and I know you will find Diana's voice (stop having her say "Aye" for starters--- she's not Thor  ). The story progresses a bit here, even if it seems a standardized Wonder Woman tale thus far. I'm a little disappointed about Hades' return, as Ares' elevation to the King of the Underworld was never really explored, and Hades was obliterated. Can't wait to find out how Hades came back from being unmade. I have a few questions, and comments: 1) When did Athena become Queen of Olympus? 2) When did Dick Grayson become "the son of the Bat?" 3) When did anyone ever refer to Diana as "Di?" (Ughh!) 4) What the heck does this mean: "She had her lasso of truth. The one thing that had kept her on the path of righteousness for all the years she had been a hero."SPOILERS: Best part of the issue was the reveal of Aethalides. Interesting twist there, Chuck! You definately turned my head on that one. So, the Phantom Stranger is the son of Hermes, huh...? All in all, I feel the same way about this title that I feel about the current run on Shazam!: two committed and earnest creators, trying hard to give us an extreme mythos tale. Nice cover, Ramon! You do a seriously badass Diana! |
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Post by HoM on Apr 6, 2008 14:41:16 GMT -5
Ok on the "Aye", heh.  Oh, you'll probably hate next issue Dave. All is revealed. 1) During Jay's run, Apollo was kicked down a peg and Athena became Queen of Olympus. Or, if I'm wrong, in an upcoming issue, all will be revealed! 2) I apologize that you didn't like that. Semantics. 3) Ok, I get you on that one. Di seems to... Urgh. You're right. 4) I like to think that the Lasso is the one constant in here life. But I get wordy, and sometimes lose the point. Apologies. Focus focus focus! That's a lesson I need to learn in everything. |
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Post by David on Apr 6, 2008 15:08:09 GMT -5
2) I apologize that you didn't like that. Semantics. No, it's not, really. Dick Grayson is the son of the Flying Graysons. He was only partially raised and trained by "the Bat". |
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Post by HoM on Apr 6, 2008 16:10:58 GMT -5
Says you...!
You like the army of Batman, not the family, so it's just... I prefer the family. That's how I see Batman. That's how I write him. You may write him otherwise, but for me, Nightwing is the son of Batman. Dick, yes, I concede, is equal parts Grayson and Wayne now.
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Post by David on Apr 6, 2008 17:02:03 GMT -5
Says you...! You like the army of Batman, not the family, so it's just... I prefer the family. That's how I see Batman. That's how I write him. You may write him otherwise, but for me, Nightwing is the son of Batman. Dick, yes, I concede, is equal parts Grayson and Wayne now. Huh? What is he, a chemistry experiment? It is an objective fact that Dick Grayson is not Batman's son, no matter how much revisionists wish it were otherwise (though why, I don't know). They're getting their chance with Tim Drake now, but leave Dick Grayson alone! And I don't especially like the "Batman army/Frank Miller" approach--- I just prefer it to the New-Age, emo "Batman family" B.S. I liked it best when Batman and Robin were "chums", partners and near equals (no, not Adam West, but Denny O'Neal and Jim Aparo). Batman has no business being a nurturing patriarch. |
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Post by arcalian on Apr 6, 2008 21:28:20 GMT -5
The issue itself was busy and contained may fascinating story threads--I particularly note the Vertigo nods. Good stuff all around, though I agree with David that at points it was a little choppy.
But now of course, I have to turn my attention to the Bat-Argument. Ughhhhh.
Though I am not exactly thrilled to admit it, I sort of agree with Charlie here. Batman can't have had Dick in his custody, as his ward, for so many years, without becoming at least something of a patriarch.
If it was just Bruce and Alfred, or just Bruce and Dick, then perhaps the "chums" argument would work. But when you have all three, a greater concept must arise; and army and family are the only options I'm aware of. And an army really doesn't work. That way leads sociopathy. Miller reveled in this, which is one of the many reasons why his version is overrated.
I missed the part where the Bat-family has to be emo. Under Didio, maybe, but not here.
Which leads me to my next point; David, you know better than anybody, this site is by definition revisionist. When you began it it was yours and others reinterpretation of the existing DC universe that was officially published. The key point here, is that it can be done right this time....if only we let it.
And if anything, given how long he was under Bruce's wing, Dick is more Bruce's son than Tim is now or could be for quite some time. That doesn't mean that Dick ever calls him "Dad." Or that Bruce should call Dick or Tim "Son." But that dynamic is part of their relationship, like it or not, openly admitted or not.
All of that said, I do like the idea of Batman and Robin as partners and near-equals.
Now guys, perhaps we can acknowledge that elements of both arguments are true? It's like nature vs nurture, or chicken and the egg. We can let go of this and move on to more important things, nuh?
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Post by David on Apr 7, 2008 6:17:25 GMT -5
The issue itself was busy and contained may fascinating story threads--I particularly note the Vertigo nods. Good stuff all around, though I agree with David that at points it was a little choppy. But now of course, I have to turn my attention to the Bat-Argument. Ughhhhh. Though I am not exactly thrilled to admit it, I sort of agree with Charlie here. Batman can't have had Dick in his custody, as his ward, for so many years, without becoming at least something of a patriarch. Why? Are you suggesting that raising a boy from the age of 13 to 18 makes him his father? Sorry, Jay, I don't see the necessity of that at all. Adding a third, younger member to the dynamic doesnt make it a family. How many nights did Bruce stay home with Dick when he had the flu? Of course, Dick had his real father and mother for that for most of his childhood--- and you'd have a hardt ime convincing me it wasn't Alfred who took on that role when Dick went to live in Wayne Manor. Did Bruce direct Dick's academic education (short of paying for it)? Did Bruce give Dick advice on girls (like he's one to talk)? Bruce taught Dick to be a crimefighter. That's not a father, nor does it have to be. This perspective does not minimalize Bruce's contribution to Dick's development, but it may put it in the proper context. Well, I'm not sure I agree with that at all, but perjaps I'm misunderstanding your point. Agreed. Miller's recent Batstuff is terrible. And yet it's the only Bat-title I buy... I honestly cannot fathom that... Pretty pictures, maybe? I was absolutely appalled by last issue (the pwning of Hal Jordan)... Any time Batman is not presented as a driven, haunted crusader against crime, and starts to agonize over his "failings" we veer into emo-territory, and someone needs to be slapped. On that, at least, Frank Miller and I agree. It should be noted, this is my opnion on Batman only, and not on life in general. Feelings are great. I have them all the time, myself. Too true, and good point. The trick is to do it right, though. Why not more his friend? His protege? His partner? His confidante? Why does it have to be 'son?' Why does Dick, by virtue of his age, get pegged into society's pre-conceived pigeon-hole? <Shudder> I like it not, and heartily dispute the implied inevitability of that statement. NEVER! I shall rail against this perception until the heavens fall! (But I'll pipe down for now  ) |
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Post by starlord on Apr 7, 2008 21:20:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure what I've enjoyed more, the story or his letter column. A full blown discussion about Batman on a Wonder Woman forum. LOL! That being said, it was a very good issue, and most of the questions I have, David already asked. However, I also know that Charlie ususally has a plan, and I'm in for the long haul on this one. As for the whole Bruce/Dick thing... well, there's a third theory that I'm not even going to bring up.  |
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Post by brigante133 on Apr 8, 2008 2:57:50 GMT -5
I'm not even going to tell you what kind of freak you sound like when you say things like that.
You are both wrong and I hate you.
I don't think Batman has to be any one interpretation. I never got that Dick was Bruce's son but Robin might be Batman's. I know that's not the context which David is so outraged against but the idea of a Batman spawned the idea of Robin.
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Post by zirron on Apr 8, 2008 5:42:55 GMT -5
There are so many versions of Batman out there.. that it's really hard to composite them into one mindset.. I liked the old Neil Adams version myself, but I have liked Frank Miller up until his recent mess.. I mean creation.. but that being said... I like the take that the writers here try and take on Batman. I had a chance to read this beforehand.... and think that Charlie is building a great tale of suspense and action. Definitely something that was missing!  take care, Z. |
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Post by Merai on Apr 11, 2008 14:18:23 GMT -5
Another enjoyable issue. I'm going to get my main criticism out of the way up front; I'm not that well acquainted with the Wonder Woman mythos, and I did get confused between Delhi and Oracles and Athena and Olympus and Ancient Greece and sightseeing and champions and Ares and whatnot. However, that said; Overall, I did enjoy the issue. The writing was good throughout, and your main strength seems to stay consistent from book to book; capturing the characters themselves, especially through dialogue. The showdown at the start was great, and I liked the end, but I felt the middle wandered a bit with the interludes etc, possibly because I just can't appreciate the full significence without much experience of the mythology. As I said, I still enjoyed the issue very much, and it retains your signature style! Hopefully, as I learn more about the Greek pantheton etc in this, the confusion will be less of a problem. Can't wait for next issue and the... big events therein! AndfortherecordIsubscribetotheBatmanfamilytheory |
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Post by starlord on Apr 12, 2008 2:59:57 GMT -5
Very good read, and once again I'm left wanting more. More Wonder Woman, more of the Gods and the mystery. Dialog was crisp and precise and the cover was amazing! I find it funny (and this is not a criticism) that when Diana tells Bruce she's going alone, he automatically reaches for his JL communicator. This is a man who's blocked the Justice League from helping him at all now that he's in the middle of his city being taken over. LOL! There's some real irony in that. Where is Ares??? That, I'm dying to know! I really enjoyed the moment between Diana and Donna. If anyone deserves to be a player in this book, it is definitely Diana's sister. But... ummm... are you really sticking with the Di name. I have to admit, every time I read it, I see Princess Diana, and then I see Prince Charles and I get this icky feeling. The ending was a bit of a shock, to say the least. That was one guest star I didn't expect to see show up!  I'm verycurious on why he's put himself into the middle of Diana's task. Verrry interesting! Another great issue, Charlie! As always, I'll be back to read, support, and comment. |
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Post by HoM on Apr 12, 2008 7:35:26 GMT -5
I think, continuity wise, this takes place just before the current Batman/Tec arcs kick off. Then, after #26, it'll be AFTER the conclusion of those runs. I think? I'm not sure.
Anyways, with #27, I'm expanding on everything. We're going to see Themyscira, the Amazons, everything. Plus, the title of said issue (the solicit is up!) should give you a really weird clue as to what else is going to happen in the issue...
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Susan Hillwig
Staff 
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
Posts: 1,612
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Post by Susan Hillwig on Apr 13, 2008 16:32:24 GMT -5
Holy...man, CHARLIE wrote this?!? This was...wow, this issue and the last were something else. I am not a Wonder Woman fan, and I've only read a couple issues of it on DC2, but if Charlie stays on the book long-term, I'm gonna have to stick around too.
You're doing a grand job with this story (for sure, you're making me think all the way back to Miss Nill's Greek myth class in high school!) and having the Phantom Stranger pop up to guide WW is delightful! I've always loved that guy! I can't wait to see what horrors the two of them will face in the underworld!
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Post by HoM on May 4, 2008 10:41:17 GMT -5
Holy...man, CHARLIE wrote this?!? This was...wow, this issue and the last were something else. I am not a Wonder Woman fan, and I've only read a couple issues of it on DC2, but if Charlie stays on the book long-term, I'm gonna have to stick around too. Thanks Susan You're doing a grand job with this story (for sure, you're making me think all the way back to Miss Nill's Greek myth class in high school!) and having the Phantom Stranger pop up to guide WW is delightful! I've always loved that guy! I can't wait to see what horrors the two of them will face in the underworld! Well... You don't have to wait long... |
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I'mverycurious on why he's put himself into the middle of Diana's task. Verrry interesting! 
