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Post by arcalian on Dec 16, 2011 3:22:41 GMT -5
Well, this has been a long time coming.
The special grew in the telling and for a while I worried I would never finish the opening part.
But here it is!
Let us know what you think!
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Post by HoM on Dec 17, 2011 6:37:54 GMT -5
Blimey. I thought you don't like Grant Morrison, and then you surprise me with a Leo Quintum appearance. That was decidedly pleasant to see! I like the setup. The cover is big on spoilers. Brainiac and the White Martians versus Earth. Okay, this is a story I can get behind on that concept alone.
I'm reading it, and I understand some of the narrative choices you're making. Big on dialogue, sparking and fluid, to move the story forward. It's something I do, I think. I probably don't do it particularly well, because you can run the risk of alienating the reading, having them struggle to keep up, but I don't think you did that here.
I don't understand why everyone was so rude to each other. Batman was horrible to Scarlet Wing for no reason. You've written "dick"-Batman. You have made Batman a dick, and he's not been like that for ages (unless I've missed something). For someone who rallies against the supposed Dan Didio "Dark Age" of Comics, you've whole heartedly sold into your interpretation of it And then as soon as Batman's a dick to Scarlet Wing, he's all interested to chat to Dagon about fear and tactics. That was character whiplash for me.
When there was mention of White Martians meeting the Justice League previously, it got me thinking, "when was that"? This event seems to be really reliant on stuff that's come before, but didn't feel accessible to someone who hasn't kept up with the DC2 in over a year, so I don't know how accessible it would be to new readers.
The scope is great though, complete rock and a hard place situation, with Earth in the middle. White Martians swarming around the world (I think you've wasted an opportunity though, to suddenly have them appear. It could have been so creepy, so foreboding, but you went for pay off, had them appear immediately, which takes the creepy-factor away from a decidedly creepy concept) and Brainiac in orbit plotting his experiments. Unnerving!
Really, I think this arc should have run in Teen Titans, not as its own miniseries. You allude so heavily to events in that title that I'm at a loss. You make so many insinuations to previous stories that I'm at a loss. I feel like I'm missing out on threads that you think should be obvious to a reader. I think you needed an editor to read it over before it posted (Brainiac is spelt right and wrong in event amounts) and I think there were some pacing issues that could have been ironed out by having another pair of eyes read it over before it posted. Everything felt rushed, and you said it yourself that it kept growing and growing, and I think that probably didn't help the pacing.
I know I get excited about stories at times, and I keep writing and writing. Look at Green Lantern #29, ruddy massive, but I thought"okay, how can I streamline this and keep everything concise? Plus Mark pointed out flaws in my storytelling that really helped tighten it up. The unedited version was somewhat bloated and lacked a lot of the emotional punch I was going for.
All in all, I don't feel the stakes yet. The White Martian invasion doesn't have the punch it might have if you had stretched out the opening salvo. It was very much "BANG Brainiac has been detected! BANG Justice League and Teen Titans and anyone else who's around prepare for the worst! BANG White Martians attacking! BANG Invasion/kidnapping/etc BANG To Be Continued In..." I'm not one for decompressed story telling (I'm very much aware that I don't want a story to be stretched out for months when it can be done in one) but I think it would have really helped this story.
An interesting opening, and I'll follow the story into Teen Titans, but I still want to be impressed by what's going on, and I know you can do that but it feels like you're running on autopilot at the moment. Trying to get a story out there you've had waiting in the wings for months but without any of the chutzpah behind it you might have had if you'd written it when you first conceived it.
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Post by David on Dec 17, 2011 8:42:32 GMT -5
Jay, first I just want to applaud you for getting this story out there! It's big, ambitious and I'll bet it was a lot of fun to write. Reminds me of the type of thing we did when the DC2 was new. And while most of us have gone and returned may times, you've been steadfast, plugging away to keep the DC2 vital, producing new content consistently--- Jay, you're the DC2 Torchbearer! That being said, I can't disagree with most of Charlie's feedback  . This issue really suffered from the lack of an editor (Apokalypse?). Characterization seemed off in places (above cited Batman example, the exchange between Aquaman and Green Lantern), and some dialogue was downright awkward (why does Adam Strange sound like a Doctor Who reject instead of the Indiana Jones-type he should be?). We lovingly linger on Deathstroke's struggles, but the heroes themselves seem like cyphers. Now, I've read quite a bit of your stuff, and I'm a fan! In fact, the above criticism aside, I honestly didn't dislike this issue so much as have to scratch my head at it... You're a great writer (the first section, for instance, was worthy of H.G. Wells!), and I'll be back for the second (concluding?) issue, because the story is intriguing and I have faith in you to pull it off  . As for that cover--- well, we knew it was Brainiac from Page One (not to mention that it posted late, after I had already read the issue  ), so I'm not too concerned about that. Great image, of the alien conqueror bestriding the world, with the White Martians boiling out for an attack. Reminds me of a drawing of William Blake's... |
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Post by arcalian on Dec 17, 2011 13:02:34 GMT -5
At this point, I count myself lucky that anybody's reading the thing at all.
It is, unapologetically, an Earth 1 book that relies on Earth 1 continuity leading up to this point. Part of the problem was that this event was originally supposed to be running through JLA and Aztek as well. Quinum, for example, was from the most recent run of JLA. Ditto for Aztek's involvement. I kept as much as the original script as I could, based on our notes. I know Charlie is familiar with the problem of not every involved script actually getting finished, from the problems he had on Nemesis. Also, I didn't want to get too Titans centric, and point out that I can write about things besides Titans and Batman.
Speaking of Batman, he's not being a dick, he's being a professional. as he himself said. And you may have noticed his softening towards both Nightwing and Dagon. That said, I'll do my best to show a lighter side of him as the event goes on.
Some of the hero battles were glossed over a bit (though I thought I did pretty well with the Superman-White Martian dialogue) simply because this thing was already a monster, and adding characterization to each and every one of those would have added another 15,000 or so words to something that was already taking me to my limit.
I am not a fan of post 2000 Morrison, that's true. But 90s Morrison? JLA, Invisibles, Vampirella? That Morrison I do look back on with fondness.
As for having no editor. Um, yeah....I haven't had an editor on any of my own writing, including Titans, for quite some time. I doubt anybody wants the job at this point, and even if they did, would they be able to agree with my creative direction? And if so, does anybody have the time whilst dealing with their own new projects?
All of that said, thanks for reading, guys!
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Post by HoM on Dec 20, 2011 4:02:52 GMT -5
At this point, I count myself lucky that anybody's reading the thing at all. Of course we're going to read it. To be fair, everyone should be reading everything, else why would one writer want to read another writer's work? QUID PRO QUO, CLARICE! But this event is something I know you've been building toward for nigh on a year now. I'm going to be psyched no matter what (I love me an event)! It is, unapologetically, an Earth 1 book that relies on Earth 1 continuity leading up to this point. Part of the problem was that this event was originally supposed to be running through JLA and Aztek as well. Quinum, for example, was from the most recent run of JLA. Ditto for Aztek's involvement. I kept as much as the original script as I could, based on our notes. I know Charlie is familiar with the problem of not every involved script actually getting finished, from the problems he had on Nemesis. Also, I didn't want to get too Titans centric, and point out that I can write about things besides Titans and Batman. I love me some Earth-1. I keep saying-- everywhere!-- Earth-1 is my bread and butter. But if you're using DC2 Nemesis (check it out, newcomers!) as an example, I made concessions for the fact I dropped collaborators. I rewrote aspects, I made it as accessible as possible. And where I couldn't make it accessible, I used Editor's Notes, I re-framed sequences to make sense in the new context they were appearing in. A big problem for me was that this issue was inaccessible to a casual reader. I lean toward the Jim Shooter approach (but not so stringently) wherein titles should be accessible to a new reader. I know that's not as valid an opportunity as it could be what with our very ingrained continuity, but I do think if you've got a punctuated "event" miniseries like this, I think you should make efforts toward it! Speaking of Batman, he's not being a dick, he's being a professional. as he himself said. And you may have noticed his softening towards both Nightwing and Dagon. That said, I'll do my best to show a lighter side of him as the event goes on. But Batman and Nightwing should be equals! On par with each other! Batman doesn't need to "soften" to someone like Nightwing. I think that's a character misstep right there. Some of the hero battles were glossed over a bit (though I thought I did pretty well with the Superman-White Martian dialogue) simply because this thing was already a monster, and adding characterization to each and every one of those would have added another 15,000 or so words to something that was already taking me to my limit. Hell, you've already committed to the format, you could have split this issue into three and allowed every moment to breathe. I would have just followed through on the mini aspect (or had the event run through six issues of Teen Titans) and tell every bit of the story you had to. As for having no editor. Um, yeah....I haven't had an editor on any of my own writing, including Titans, for quite some time. I doubt anybody wants the job at this point, and even if they did, would they be able to agree with my creative direction? And if so, does anybody have the time whilst dealing with their own new projects? I would have offered if you asked for one. I think these stories need to be razor sharp and focused but at the same time concisely plotted and paced logically. I've worked at stories like this for a good few years now so I think I could have introduced something to the dynamic (for better or for worse!). My ability to edit is directly informed by Don's editing of me, and every other story I wrote with Don by my side was quote unquote "epic". I think you need to ask yourself "can I tell this story in the X issues I have planned?" and I think the answer would probably be "no". You should allow the story to breathe. Obviously it's your call, and I'm going to follow the story into the next issue either way (because the potential of this story is pretty cool) but as one writer to another, I know you can turn this up to 11 if you evaluated the context, the content, and how you're approaching it. Take from this what you will, no word of a negative intended. |
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Post by arcalian on Dec 20, 2011 12:08:08 GMT -5
I appreciate what you're saying, Charlie, but I'm not dragging this thing out for another six months. There were too many months when nothing was published by me as it is. I already made concessions, in the sense that poor Aztek sort of faded into the background.
And Batman made it clear that he appreciated Dick's efforts during his abscence. If that's not acknowledgement of an equal, I dunno what is.
Edited to include commentary on Aztek.
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Post by Romans Empire on Dec 28, 2011 15:44:58 GMT -5
Alrighty then! I was eager to finally get to this issue since it was hinted at months ago, and I love to see everyone get together to face a big crisis.
All that said I really struggled with how the first part of this issue began. The opening left me scratching my head, forcing me to go back and reread it several times to see what it was I missed. I am still not sure I understand a few things:
If the mysterious big bad had successfully remained hidden, what was it about Quintum being attacked that led everyone to believe that believe that there was something so extraordinary wrong that the Teen Titans needed to be called up? It was mentioned that there was an "potential alien invasion by an invisible enemy" "a big case" and "their world is at stake" "This is worse then usual" As a reader, at this point I just don't get why all of these heroes who have faced world threating menaces would be acting this way when nothing has happened thus far to warrant it.
As for the interactions between the Titans, followed by the Titans and League members, the dialogue seemed more then a little awkward and hard to read. All of which threw me completely out of the story at this point. I know when writing dialogue I often say the lines out loud to hear how it sounds. Now I know I have seen you really get into the head of a character and speak through them. That just wasn't the case here with any of them I'm afraid.
The story started to flow at bit once things started and the cast in this tale expanded. I did have to shake my head at Luthor. For a smart man, I have never been a fan of the dumbed down tantrum throwing Luthor who despises all the heroes, when he could easily work things to his advantage. I guess I hope for better things from the character. As this issue moved along he began to show some of what makes Lex, Lex. Hope we can see more of that in the coming issues (issue?) whatever length this series is, or where it all happens before concluding?
Deathstroke is very hit and miss with me. I believe the character peaked by the end of his first ongoing series. Since then I he has usually been mishandled and overused over in the DCU. (same thing with Luthor). Again, my hopes and expectations are high for this character as well.
The later part of the tale really got the issue moving as we finally begin to see what the White Martians can do.
Overall, I found more misses then hits with this issue, with what I mentioned above as well as I felt the story did more "telling" then "showing" overall. But all things aside, I have remained a fan of your work and will follow this tale over in the Teen Titans issue.
The cover was pretty dang cool. I hope to be able to see more from this artist!
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Post by arcalian on Dec 29, 2011 0:19:14 GMT -5
Thanks for reading, John. Hope we can see more of that in the coming issues (issue?) whatever length this series is, or where it all happens before concluding? The cover was pretty dang cool. I hope to be able to see more from this artist! Lex and Deathstroke are both important to the series, you may rest assured. Zeb will do the cover for the final issue of the event, as well. I must also say, thank you for reading and responding, especially when I am so far behind in that department myself. Especially with the Christmas stuff. Gotta put up a Way Back as we speak, as a matter of fact.... |
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Post by Fantômas on Sept 19, 2012 17:42:09 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this.
I've been doing quite a bit of reading to get a feel for DC2 continuity lately, and it was exciting seeing the connections all being knitted together here.
Hoping this is just suffering a lenghty delay, rather than a complete halt.
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Post by arcalian on Sept 20, 2012 0:00:54 GMT -5
Hey, thanks. The next issue of Teen Titans is about 75% complete, and I'm working on it. The cover's been ready (sans dressing) for a while, so I just need to finish up. Maybe next week, maybe early October!
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Post by Fantômas on Sept 20, 2012 7:55:35 GMT -5
Looking forward to it.
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. This issue really suffered from the lack of an editor (Apokalypse?). Characterization seemed off in places (above cited Batman example, the exchange between Aquaman and Green Lantern), and some dialogue was downright awkward (why does Adam Strange sound like a Doctor Who reject instead of the Indiana Jones-type he should be?). We lovingly linger on Deathstroke's struggles, but the heroes themselves seem like cyphers.
.
), so I'm not too concerned about that. Great image, of the alien conqueror bestriding the world, with the White Martians boiling out for an attack. Reminds me of a drawing of William Blake's... 
