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Post by David on Oct 6, 2015 13:23:45 GMT -5
Let us know what you think!
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Post by HoM on Oct 9, 2015 14:56:22 GMT -5
I mentioned this to David yesterday, but I unfortunately didn't enjoy this issue! Apologies if this feeback seems disjointed but I'm half asleep and watching wrestling so, yeah, not the best way to approach this! Anyway, even though I didn't enjoy it, that's not to say that it wasn't as well-written as any of David's stuff, but I was left so cold by the cast, the story, pretty much every part of it apart from the fact that Wonder Woman helped Giganta get back on the straight and narrow. That was a nice moment and fully in keeping with my view of Diana as a character. Other than that, and I think this a regular theme in our 'duelling work', we have different views of the character and so your use grated with my approach to her and my broader view of her.
Storywise, things like Maxie Zeus being a congressman took me out of it-- he's a villain that apparently has KNOWN links to Apokolips (something that is apparently ACCEPTABLE in Earth-1's America?! It's not like Apokolips is like the Tea Party, David!!), therefore meaning his position of power in politics really didn't click for me. That said, unfortunately, a lot of what he said, the vitriol he spewed, didn't seem too out of place with politics today! Zauriel being on a roaring rampage upset (as upset as one gets about fan fiction, ha) me because I'm a fan of the character (and have used him previously and have plans to use him again) and him being an instrument of righteous murder didn't sit well with me. Why would angels be involved in the Chaos and Order threads? I wish that had been explained.
I mentioned in my feedback to your Hawkman story that you're throwing a lot out there without filter and this was you mainlining your narrative tendencies, for better or for worse. Unfortunately for me, it felt like the latter! The cast of Checkmate was cute, and that's fine, the reveal of Wonder Woman's identity in public was sharp, but I was left cold for the majority of the issue. When reading this, I realised I'm not a fan of the Steve Trevor / Diana pairing and it felt like Steve was avoiding their daughter on Themyscira, and I dunno, it's a shame, because that cover is SHARP (great work, Steve, great great work as ever) but the content left me wanting. I'm not invested in the wider Chaos vs Order story-- theirs has never be a story I've been bothered about, and this isn't really doing anything new for me, or the concept, which is a shame because I know YOU'RE invested in it, and the idea of a wider, Morrison-writing-Seven-Soldiers approach, to an event within an event, is really appealing.
I'll read the next issue and hopefully it comes together!
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Post by David on Oct 10, 2015 8:52:52 GMT -5
Hey, any feedback is good feedback, right? I mentioned this to David yesterday, but I unfortunately didn't enjoy this issue! Apologies if this feeback seems disjointed but I'm half asleep and watching wrestling so, yeah, not the best way to approach this! Anyway, even though I didn't enjoy it, that's not to say that it wasn't as well-written as any of David's stuff, but I was left so cold by the cast, the story, pretty much every part of it apart from the fact that Wonder Woman helped Giganta get back on the straight and narrow. That was a nice moment and fully in keeping with my view of Diana as a character. Other than that, and I think this a regular theme in our 'duelling work', we have different views of the character and so your use grated with my approach to her and my broader view of her. Charlie and I have pretty much written every major character on the DC2 at this point, and it's no secret we can approach them differently. I've always viewed Wonder Woman as someone who has love and peace in her heart, but aware that she may have to fight to make the world a better place. Once she was a stranger in a strange land, but she wants to be a part of the world, to have every experience a person can have (a difference maker in the world, a friend, a lover, a mother, etc). Some of those things are new to the Diana of 10YL, and I can see how the comparison may be jarring. As far as I know, this is Maxie Zeus first appearance on Earth-One, right? If his villainous bona fides haven't been established yet, then why can't he be a charismatic demagogue elected to Congress? This is not unheard of in American politics, after all, as this is superhero fan fiction, maybe a small willing suspension of disbelief is warranted? If this is not his first appearance, and your confusion arises from the fact that he was last seen in Arkham Asylum, then I can certainly understand where you're coming from. Sad but true. The Congressional Hearing was a fun scene to write. I watched C-SPAN for research. Oops! Sorry, Charlie! I didn't know that. Where did you use him? I though this was his first appearance... Why didn't you say anything when I told you I was using the Heaven and Hell characters? It was explained. Maybe you read it too fast, or while you were watching wrestling?  Zauriel mentions it, and Destiny expands on it. It's a huge spoiler so I won't point it out here, except to say now I wonder if Diana's mission at the end was clear? It wasn't explicitly stated since I felt like I telegraphed it, and I wanted the reader to finish the issue and think about what Diana has to do next, and slowly let the horror (and bigness) of that revelation sink in. Was it obvious? Did you get it? I think part of it is this is a three to four part story I'm shoe-horning into two issues. Like Hawkman, there's a lot of story here, and some of it needs to breathe and expand, but I really just feel like getting to the meat of it instead. Valid observation, though. A lot of Checkmate stuff was left on the cutting room floor (metaphorically speaking: I planned it, but never wrote it, as it would have made this four issues instead of two), but I didn't want to waste the concepts. Some of that pays off next issue, of course. You don't like Diana and Steve together? Not sure why you think Steve, particularly (but not Diana), was avoiding Lyta. Both of them have pretty important day jobs... And remember, Diana herself was raised by the same women, and she turned out okay. But this is not to say Diana and Steve don't raise their daughter; they're just not on Paradise Island at the moment, right? I hope I wrote an issue that stands up next to Steve Howard's fantastic cover. I know this one didn't work for you, Charlie, but that's okay, I'm still happy with it. The trick will be to see if I can pull off the conclusion--- there's some tricky stuff coming up! You keep trying to put it on me, nut I never set out to write a Morrisonian story. My idea from the beginning was to frame the Chaos and Order War (which I always felt was an unresolved conflict in the DCU, and wished some writer would pick it up) as the Great Disaster, and to view it through the lenses of different books. If anything it's Moorcockian. Morrison's Seven Soldiers was great, it's just not my model for this. We're not all going to like every story, or even the same stories, and that's okay. That sort of diversity is what makes the DC2 so fun. Don't like Wonder Woman? Go read Secret Six! Don't like Secret Six? Go read Green Lantern! We've pretty much got all interests covered! Thanks, buddy. I appreciate the support. |
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Post by HoM on Oct 10, 2015 10:55:31 GMT -5
As far as I know, this is Maxie Zeus first appearance on Earth-One, right? If his villainous bona fides haven't been established yet, then why can't he be a charismatic demagogue elected to Congress? This is not unheard of in American politics, after all, as this is superhero fan fiction, maybe a small willing suspension of disbelief is warranted? If this is not his first appearance, and your confusion arises from the fact that he was last seen in Arkham Asylum, then I can certainly understand where you're coming from. When Maxie appeared it caught me off guard so I checked the character database, and you're absolutely right, this is his first appearance! I guess when you're aware of a character operating in one role, seeing him appear in another can be disconcerting. For me, it was a case of seeing a C-list villain who I read growing up and am used to being kind of a punchline (remember when he appeared in Knightfall, running away from Arkham Asylum in a straitjacket and getting clotheslined by Bullock?). There is a precedent for him appearing in a Wonder Woman tale too, due to his role in the first arc of Phil Jimenez's run, Gods of Gotham. That's a nice little nod, even if it wasn't intended! Oops! Sorry, Charlie! I didn't know that. Where did you use him? I though this was his first appearance... Why didn't you say anything when I told you I was using the Heaven and Hell characters? One of the main protagonists of DC2 Nemesis!! A role in Wonder Woman back when I wrote the book!! This one is not on me!!
It was explained. Maybe you read it too fast, or while you were watching wrestling? Zauriel mentions it, and Destiny expands on it. It's a huge spoiler so I won't point it out here, except to say now I wonder if Diana's mission at the end was clear? It wasn't explicitly stated since I felt like I telegraphed it, and I wanted the reader to finish the issue and think about what Diana has to do next, and slowly let the horror (and bigness) of that revelation sink in. Was it obvious? Did you get it? I will hold up my hands and say that as I read this, due to my lack of enjoyment I began to skim. I'll take the hit on that I'll give it another read in the next couple of days (I have a long weekend starting tomorrow) and look closely at the Destiny and Zauriel parts. Hopefully coming at it sans watching wrestling and with more sleep in the bag will clear things up. Sorry about that! I think part of it is this is a three to four part story I'm shoe-horning into two issues. Like Hawkman, there's a lot of story here, and some of it needs to breathe and expand, but I really just feel like getting to the meat of it instead. Valid observation, though. I have to say, it's a shame that you're feeling the need to compress, but the reasoning behind it makes sense. While some of the greatest stories of all time have been tight little affairs (Every single issue of Lee and Kirby's Fantastic Four, natch), I'd love to see these stories spread across the months, rather than the weeks. With this being the ten year anniversary, the short timespan makes sense. Unfortunately! I'd love to see parts of all these stories expanded upon across the board. Guess maybe the last man standing will have to do a bit of digging! You don't like Diana and Steve together? Not sure why you think Steve, particularly (but not Diana), was avoiding Lyta. Both of them have pretty important day jobs... And remember, Diana herself was raised by the same women, and she turned out okay. But this is not to say Diana and Steve don't raise their daughter; they're just not on Paradise Island at the moment, right? Fair, but it was my reading of this passage: It's all well and good leaving your daughter under the guardianship of your sisters, but it'd been weeks since they'd last seen her! I just thought 'oh, that's sad', because they're not seeing her every day. That was one of my threads in Green Lantern (thanks for the nod, by the way) when Jessica was thought dead... the weight of knowing you lost your daughter, that you weren't with her... that's also the key sadness to Barry Allen's situation after the events of The Legacy of Lightning, an arc I reference in Justice League. Complete sadness, no matter how hard they try to not be sad. Obviously, Chloe and Hal had their daughter returned to them, but Barry hasn't been that lucky. And knowing that, would Diana stay away from Lyta for any protracted period of time? Now we're getting into our 'different readings' of the characters, but that's fine. I understand your reasonings! You keep trying to put it on me, nut I never set out to write a Morrisonian story. My idea from the beginning was to frame the Chaos and Order War (which I always felt was an unresolved conflict in the DCU, and wished some writer would pick it up) as the Great Disaster, and to view it through the lenses of different books. If anything it's Moorcockian. Morrison's Seven Soldiers was great, it's just not my model for this. You misunderstand me-- I'm not saying you're writing like Morrison (and you could say that Morrison was frequently writing Moorcock), I'm saying the format is Morrisonian. Seven Soldiers of Victory featured seven different miniseries all taking unique stories that could be read separately or as a whole. If you read them separately you'd have a great read on your hand, but if you read all the miniseries, you suddenly found yourself reading a maxiseries, an event spread across numerous books, numerous characters, and it was all the more rewarding for it! This isn't a bad thing, and I would never take an accusation of writing like Morrison negatively (unless it's said with a sneer which I have done previously!), it's just a format observation. Anyway, lots to think about, and thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll get back to you when I've done a re-read of those sequences we discuss. |
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Post by David on Oct 12, 2015 17:28:49 GMT -5
RETCON ALERT!
The name of the killer angel who appears in this issue has been changed to Asmodel, to avoid confusion with that other angel named Zauriel, an established DC2 character who appears in DC2: Nemesis, and is most certainly NOT the character included in this issue.
My bad.
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Susan Hillwig
Staff 
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.
Posts: 1,612
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Post by Susan Hillwig on Nov 20, 2015 13:01:19 GMT -5
RETCON ALERT!The name of the killer angel who appears in this issue has been changed to Asmodel, to avoid confusion with that other angel named Zauriel, an established DC2 character who appears in DC2: Nemesis, and is most certainly NOT the character included in this issue. My bad. You might want to give the story another sweep: I was still finding references to Zauriel, and it was rather confusing, especially when I'd see both Zauriel and Asmodel named in the same paragraph! |
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Post by HoM on Nov 21, 2015 2:37:02 GMT -5
I've fixed that now, Susan. A bit of the ol' find-and-replace.
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Post by oblique on Nov 13, 2016 17:05:43 GMT -5
This was a very compelling and well-written issue! First, I enjoyed the writing, dialogue, and characterization. Diana is calm but passionate, handling each situation in an intelligent and wise manner. I liked the lead-in with a prologue and brief action, interspersed with references to establish the new setting. The scene in Congress was brutally accurate! Wonder Woman can be a hard character to write -- given how many interpretations of her there have been -- but I enjoyed this version immensely. (The cover was simply spectacular.)
Second, I'm a newcomer to the DC2 Universe and I'm reading the original material and "Ten Years Later," so I came from the first run on "Wonder Woman" to this -- and what a ride! This issue really takes advantage of the concept behind "Ten Years Later," as I understand it. Taking us forward into the future, where Wonder Woman has a family and an (additional) role at a global foundation, elevates the threat -- to her daughter and her life's work.
The "cosmic" struggle feels more personal, and deadly. I've never been the biggest fan of the Judeo-Christian elements in comics, but you make it work in this story arc, integrating the Olympians, Asmodel, Neron, Etrigan, and Destiny. The threat feels big, as big as it can be, and Wonder Woman is the only character who could fit this story. I look forward to the next issue!
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