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Post by HoM on Mar 16, 2007 16:47:35 GMT -5
Well Brian mentioned it...
WHO... And WHY?
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Post by HoM on Mar 16, 2007 17:03:00 GMT -5
I'm a Danny Didio man myself!
I think that Joe Quesada has turned his back on quite a few ethics that made comics comics, especially all that d*ck sucking of Stephen Colbert. Jesus, we get it, quit doing that sh*t man! Yes, comic books have come more and more into the media spotlight (comic book films, comic book characters being gay/lesbian and characters dying) but it's just so... So not cool what he's been doing.
And also come on.
HE KILLED (NO, NOT AGENT 13...) -- HE KILLED CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!
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Post by arcalian on Mar 16, 2007 17:10:13 GMT -5
Because of my already documented views on Didio, I actually looked at Marvel for the first time ever. This, from a lifetime DC guy. (With some Dark Horse, Image and small press on the side.)
What did I get when I looked at Marvel? I got Spidey pulling his mask off on a nationally televised press conference. I got a civil war between heroes where the choice between the Cap side and the Iron side was somehow presented as being in some way morally ambiguous. I ran for the hills, a decision bourne out by the assasination of Cap.
Quesada killed Cap, yes. Danny boy killed Superboy, Spoiler, probably my girl Terra 2, turned Cassandra Cain Batgirl evil, turned Tim Drake Robin into Batman junior, had Brad Meltzer set the DC Silver Age on fire and call the smouldering remnants Identity Crisis.....
Quesada should have stayed an artist. Unless I'm thinking of a different Quesada.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
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Post by HoM on Mar 16, 2007 17:22:04 GMT -5
See, heres the thing... Superboy dying? I thought it rocked. It was awesome. He sacrificed himself, and it was worth it. It wasn't pointless. He saved the MULTIVERSE. Now that's heroism. Spoiler dying? Umm... Yeah. "Oh, no!" I thought it was bad that Leslie Thompkins 'refused care' but hey, we all make mistakes (Black Zero, anyone?  ) and I'm glad they retconned it. Cassie Cain evil? It was part of a larger story! And it made her cool! It gave her something IMO. And bringing Tim closer to Bruce? That was awesome. Truly awesome. I might be biased though, as anything James Robinson writes is five by five to me. And to be honest, Sue Dibney? No one from my generation knew who she was. Honestly, I only knew because I love the old stuff, and even then, that mini made me care, just like Countdown to Infinite Crisis. Dan Didio may engineer the deaths of so characters, but he makes me CARE about them first! And Countdown made Ted rock so hard. I loved it. |
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Post by Romans Empire on Mar 16, 2007 17:22:35 GMT -5
I think its very simple and thats why I voted neither. It is that simple! It's about the characters that will outlive both of them. That includes Captain America! |
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Post by David on Mar 16, 2007 18:21:20 GMT -5
I thought that the last two issues of Infinte Crisis were a major let down (including the way Superboy died--- though I personally never liked the character--- and especially the way Kal-L went out), but on the whole, I'm enjoying the stuff coming out of DC.
I'm not a big Marvel reader (Captain America, Astonishing X-Men, New Avengers, and Mighty Avengers, now), but it just seems like that place is on tilt (a poker term Brian will appreciate). I mean, Iron Man is a right bastard, Spider-Man is irrevocably altered in a miserable way--- and Steve Rogers is dead?!? Leave something for the next generation, why doncha!
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Post by arcalian on Mar 16, 2007 18:56:19 GMT -5
See that's the thing about me, HoM, even the characters I'm not hot on, I care about enough not to accept stuff like that happening to. That didn't have to happen to Sue. What happened as a result to Ralph wasn't a good idea either, no matter what "greater story" it was part of. Same goes for Cassie and Stephanie.
In fact, in the entire regular DCU, there's only one character I can think of that I wouldn't mind seeing nuked, and that's the Joker. C'mon Jason, don't try to make Batman do it; do it yourself, exactly the same way he did it to you. Crowbar beating, then tied up next to a bomb. No timer though. Remote control. BOOM. You want a significant death that moves the DCU forward, and the Bat-mythos and particular? Then take out that sadistic grinning freak who's had it coming for decades.
Idlewilder, Marvel will get out of this mess two or three EICs down the line....by way of a DC style continuity Crisis revamp thingie. Of course, it would be better if it wasn't neccesary, if they hadn't dug this hole in the first place. A lesson Didio could learn, but won't.
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 16, 2007 21:50:14 GMT -5
but really, terra 1 or 2 were never great characters, just female versions of geoforce so who cares? ;D
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Post by craigcermak on Mar 16, 2007 21:59:42 GMT -5
<spits water all over keyboard>
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Post by starlord on Mar 16, 2007 22:04:37 GMT -5
<discreetly crawls under desk>
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Post by craigcermak on Mar 16, 2007 22:05:54 GMT -5
Oh, and to take part in the topic at hand...
I think that Joe Quesada and Dan Didio are both doing a tremendous job of doing what they are supposed to do: get top talent, tell new exciting stories, and sell a crap load of comics.
I'm aware of mistakes both parties are guilty of, but all companies have made mistakes before, and that's just business. You learn from it.
If it wasn't for Didio, I don't think we'd see 75% of the new books and creative talent we have seen in the last few years. Just today it was announced Peter Milligan is working on an Infinity Inc. book and I'm almost positive that if Dan wasn't there, we wouldn't have a Peter Milligan book or a new Infinity Inc. book that would sell more now because of 52.
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Post by arcalian on Mar 16, 2007 22:27:37 GMT -5
*grins at Craig and Brian's responses*
So long as you color that Resistance cover right Brigante (and I know you will), you can look at Terra any which way you want.
I've said my say. Everybody knows what I think. If Peter Milligan is the same guy who had a headache-inducing run of Vertigo-wannabe stories on Detective back in the early 90s, then I could say a thing or two about him too.
I'm ALL in favor of new talent. What's done with that talent is another question. Brad Meltzer is a perfect example of that, I think.
But, enough. I'll let my stories do my talking for me. Thanks for putting up with my rants.
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 16, 2007 22:30:09 GMT -5
<discreetly crawls under desk> i always knew you were a bottom feeder. |
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Post by starlord on Mar 16, 2007 22:49:22 GMT -5
<discreetly crawls under desk> i always knew you were a bottom feeder. Hey! I dropped a Twinkie!  |
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 16, 2007 22:53:47 GMT -5
better that than a ho ho or nutter butter... although both are equally delicious.
the chocolate frosting or whatever though, you can't dust that off, it's just ruined.
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Post by starlord on Mar 16, 2007 22:58:08 GMT -5
I believe in the five second rule. Ten seconds if your children drop it. "Oh it's fine, just brush it off and eat it!" |
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 16, 2007 23:48:12 GMT -5
i do too but if the chocolate is all melty then...
this thread has deteriorated and charlie wasn't even here.
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Post by Crow on Mar 17, 2007 2:01:05 GMT -5
I'm a bit crossed, but I'd have to say that they're both doing a good job...just that Didio is better at it...
In my opinion, Quesada doesn't feel like a EiC. To be honest, I had forgotten about Marvel for a while and when I became more conscious of the people behind comics (and not just the stories) I really though Bendis was the EiC because half the time I read articles I saw that Bendis was doing something or in charge of something happening at Marvel, not to mention that he writes and starts half of the projects in the Marvel U.
House of M was horrible, and was a terrible way to compete with DC and make a bunch of useless crossovers for a quick buck. On the otherside, Identity Crisis, while worthwhile, was half and half for me. Good story, but as Charlie said, I barely know Sue because I read old comics...my friends who are current readers have barely any idea who Elongated Man, let alone his wife.
Infinite Crisis was cool and felt very worthwhile but then it seemed like the DC folks were on a witchhunt...which wasn't so bad to get rid of obscure z-list characters but it felt a little to forced that everyone seemed to die at once. 90 percent of the year villains and heroes seem to get out of very hairy situations and then in one particular story everyone remembers that heroes are mortal too...usually. And like Arcalian (i'm bad at remembering the names behind the screennames) said...Joker should have been killed a long time ago.
52 is great most of the time...Civil War...eh...
Like said above, Iron Man is a major a-hole, and no matter how Wizard articles and Marvel interviews tried to give Tony a reason, he will still remain a major douche bag for making all of his friends fight each other and causing the death of two friends and the unmasking of another. Plus the conclusion of Civil War felt unreal to me...it felt empty that coincidentally some people felt Cap was the bad guy and that Cap surrendered...it was like a cheap movie ending...
How do I feel now? I feel like Marvel is throwing out any book they can. When I go to comic shop, I see literally half of the comic display devoted to Marvel, and the other half devoted to DC, Image, Dark Horse, and the indies. But it's not necessarily bad because Marvel is trying to get multiple audiences. What I'm hoping is that Marvel makes more unity in their comics this next year because frankly I'm sick of finding my favorite good people being bad (Prof X is a bastard in X-Men and a child loving bastard in Ultimate X-men, Iron Man did his damage, Hulk is pissed at his friends, The Avengers have been assembled-disassembled-reassembled-disassembled-assembled with trust issues-etc). For DC, I hope they continue to keep the universe connected but to tone down the random deaths unless necessary.
::takes a breath and sits quietly...then eats a Cup of Noodles!::
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 17, 2007 2:29:48 GMT -5
haha, Very good points there. I read something on comics101 in a guest lecturer column that echoed the same sentiments about all the guys in marvel being totall jerks or incredible sissies and i read this panel where the cap'n is told he doesnt understand what america is all about today because he doesn't have a myspace account... I wanted to tie a noose around my neck and hang myself...
but yeah, I'll gauge it like this: even though i don't read marvel all of their decisions make me roll my eyes. Spiderman is unmasked... okay... so.... i knew it wouldn't be too big a deal because there are like seventeen spiderman titles out right now and when the big shocker that he switched costumes happened i only saw it on one or two so i guess over there they use that kinda stuff at their own disgression. Peter Parker is pretty safe isn't he? They shot up his aunt but how many times have we seen that old broad chillin in a hospital bed, she'll be fine. Iron man as stated quite eloquently above is a total jerk who had this big war to make some cash and i just read can't even beat up spiderman... what the hell is all THAT about, build some better armor if you can't take on spiderman. Rumors of Captain America's death have been greatly exaggerated, raise your hand if you think he's really gonna stay dead and burried? Anyone? Nope? It's a comic book death he'll be back before the movie since every marvel comic gets one. Wolverine... Oh i don't even know anymore, is he half dead right now or fully alive or is his spirit still finding himself? Fool should get a therapist and move on... I bet with those claws he'd be an excellent sushi chef, i don't eat sushi but he's been to Japan and all so I figured he would. And then there is everyone else who is pretty disposeable to me.
Now over at DC they aren't full of misteps but Titans was solidly good. JSA is fantastic. despite Ted Kords death, Blue Beetle is doing wonderful. They didn't kill that dude without a plan that's for sure. Nightwing's getting there and I think that's great because it seems like fans actually made a difference in how that whole thing went down or we might even have a Jason Todd nightwing to this very day. Manhunter has been threatened to be cancelled how many times? An EIC that didn't care would prolly not let that kinda stuff happen IMO and Didio seems to care about the fan opinion, I don't know much about marvel but if the character assasination event that was Civil War is any kind of indication I don't think he cares or I don't think fan's of Iron Man and Captain America care because I bet if DiDio allowed Batman to force all his buddies to have a bloody war so his company can make some cash while Superman is like, hey that teenage girl is right, I have no idea what the American Way is... there'd be a hell of a different story about fan reaction. Anyhow... that was a lot of incoherent rambling, I'm gonna stop now.
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Post by Brandon on Mar 17, 2007 5:44:58 GMT -5
Charlie, you said "five by five".
The original Terra story in New Teen Titans was powerful (something I read before either Charlie or Ramon were born if that creates some perspective, ha) at the time it was told. But as so often in comics, one good idea can spawn a hundred bad ones and nothing is ever best left alone.
But that's why I love them too though. No idea is too good or too bad not to be explored, leaving one insane berth of middle ground. At the moment we are seeing the wild attempt of the comic industry to reach out to every potential reader without moving from the safe shelter of the direct market. Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. I can admire this approach inasmuch as it allows some wild and interesting ideas to slip through into the market, but again, it let's out all the bad ones as well. The big guys are playing all their cards and it seems to be paying off. Every tried and true shocking event is being offered up in rapid-fire succession and the fans are paying out big. But what happens when all the shock and awe wears off? Once all of the unmaskings, deaths, betrayals, rapes, and beheadings quit working will that audience still be there or will they be left with nothing to look forward to?
I see the Big Two getting their fanbases to buy heavy but how are they reaching out to new fans? Are they creating as many fans as they are burning out? I'm sure the EICs in question love their jobs, but I also have no doubt that they will both be getting nice bonus checks this year. Consider there are huge gateways into comic book-type stories through movies, cartoons, and tv shows at the moment, more so than ever before I would confidently say, but how are they being drawn in to create tomorrow's market? I can only hope that some of the swelling numbers on these perpetually hyped books are those of a growing, healthy community rather than the terrible alternative of the old one simply being bled dry.
To finish, I think that more innovation is needed for comics to find their new place in entertainment (instead of just being the loud kid over in his own corner) but I think with the number of dedicated, creative, and risk-taking guys and gals running the shows they at least have a chance.
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Post by Crow on Mar 17, 2007 11:07:29 GMT -5
Sorry, I have to piggyback that comment on Spidey taking on Iron Man's armor. That's hilarious. It's great to know that one of the smartest men in Marvel, with an almost unlimited budget, has an armor that can take on all kinds of crap but can be defeated with Spidey webbing. Even the blast. Yet down the line somewhere Iron Man will use his unibeam and repulsor blasts to cut through the Hulk or Collosus or somesuch, and no one will understand how that works.
I wanted to ask a question: I read somewhere that Sharon Carter/ Ms. Marvel said something like "Steve will most likely recover" or something like that...Is that true that he's not officially dead? Or did he really "die". Because as said above, no one dies forever in comics...Except Ted Kord and Captain Carrot. Superman died 10 years ago, everyone went crazy, the news was erally getting behind it, people wore those cool armbands...and in the end he came back.
Once Cap, Superman, Spidey and Batman die forever in comics, that's when you know the world is going to hell, because the Icons never die forever.
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Post by HoM on Mar 17, 2007 11:35:35 GMT -5
I believe in the five second rule. Ten seconds if your children drop it. "Oh it's fine, just brush it off and eat it!" No wonder you're so ill  |
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Mischief
Staff 
I Sit Upon My Throne As The Guardian & The Keeper Of The Lightning.
Posts: 1,517
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Post by Mischief on Mar 17, 2007 16:36:37 GMT -5
I thought that the last two issues of Infinte Crisis were a major let down (including the way Superboy died--- though I personally never liked the character--- and especially the way Kal-L went out), but on the whole, I'm enjoying the stuff coming out of DC. I'm not a big Marvel reader (Captain America, Astonishing X-Men, New Avengers, and Mighty Avengers, now), but it just seems like that place is on tilt (a poker term Brian will appreciate). I mean, Iron Man is a right bastard, Spider-Man is irrevocably altered in a miserable way--- and Steve Rogers is dead?!? Leave something for the next generation, why doncha! Everything will be restored later. Steve Rogers will be brought back to life before his movie comes out. Spider-Man will be brought back to the status quo. And Iron Man has been known to be an A**Hole from time to time. Remember Armor War for that reference. plus he is a business man, business men tend to be jerks too. But does Steve Rogers make Captain America who he is or does the current ideals of America make Captain America who he is??? I may start picking up Cap for that reason. I'm just tried of death meaning nothing anymore. So when are we going to see Uncle Ben return or Barry Allen, wait Barry Aleen coming back. So Ted Kord should be brought back as the new SuperNova. |
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Mischief
Staff
I Sit Upon My Throne As The Guardian & The Keeper Of The Lightning.
Posts: 1,517
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Post by Mischief on Mar 17, 2007 16:42:36 GMT -5
I believe both Didio and Quesada are doing great jobs in make comics better. With the movies and the media attention. This will hopefully ensure the existence of comics. Many people may not like the death of Steve Rogers, not Captain America, but that got me to buy the book and pick it up on a monthly bases. Plus Steve Epting's artwork has to be the best he has ever produced too. What is the worst thing in entertainment? It's when the people say nothing at all.
Mischief
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Post by HoM on Mar 17, 2007 16:48:33 GMT -5
Tony Stark had a real, concrete reason for the starting the Armour Wars (I loved BMS' epilogue to that story, the dream sequence? Amazing, my all time favourite Iron Man issue) but his reasons for Civil War? To stop a war? To protect his friends? For the people? For stocks? For money? For sex? For the children? All of the above...?
Flimsy in my opinion, Mis'Drag...
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Post by starlord on Mar 18, 2007 1:19:19 GMT -5
I went with Didio on this one, but it wasn't an easy decision. Both have allowed characters that I grew up with to be mucked up considerably, and then both have done some stuff that has impressed the hell out of me. In the end, though, the fiasco of House of M, followed by the huge train wreck called Civil War, has just turned me right off. None of their big events have been character driven. I mean, I've personally always thought Tony Stark was a rich jerk, but even I can't buy what he's become now. Cap and Spider-Man were both assassinated in character so bad that it made Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing look good! and then of course theirs Reed Richards. I'm not saying that DC is perfect by any stretch, just look at OYL and how it has really screwed with Wonder Woman and her continuity, but I do think that Didio respects his fans, and for the most part, the DC world at large, more so then Joey Q. On a more humorous note, I also think that Didio looks like some kind of mafia dude, who's ready to take out the competition. Joe Q reminds me more of the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons. |
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 18, 2007 1:27:46 GMT -5
and then of course theirs Reed Richards. I'm not saying that DC is perfect by any stretch, awesome transition. |
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Post by starlord on Mar 18, 2007 1:36:24 GMT -5
thank you. care for a twinkie? |
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Post by brigante133 on Mar 18, 2007 1:38:46 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest with you, yes. Yes, i do. I just don't think it feels the same way about me...  |
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Post by starlord on Mar 18, 2007 1:48:41 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest with you, yes. Yes, i do. I just don't think it feels the same way about me... LMAO!!! You are in rare form tonight, my friend. ;D |
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) and I'm glad they retconned it. Cassie Cain evil? It was part of a larger story! And it made her cool! It gave her something IMO. And bringing Tim closer to Bruce? That was awesome. Truly awesome. I might be biased though, as anything James Robinson writes is five by five to me. 
