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Post by Admin on Mar 5, 2008 2:28:33 GMT -5
Please let us know what you think!
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Post by zirron on Mar 5, 2008 3:58:43 GMT -5
Charles, The issue was definitely really good. I loved the scene with Charon and Ares... definitely well crafted. I can't wait to see the tale unfold with the Reaper. Bringing in Hades at the end of the first book... surprised me. Well done.  Having seen the cover for #22... It's awesome as usual. I can't wait to see further from this new team. Diana's legacy goes on! |
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Post by Merai on Mar 5, 2008 13:12:44 GMT -5
Well, first thing's first; I must confess I am not usually a Wonder Woman fan. It's not that I dislike DIana, it's just that I have little experience of her or her cast, so I'm generally not well versed on comicdom's premiere super-heroine. But I've enjoyed basically everything else you've ever written, Charlie, so I guess there's no time like the present.
And indeed, there was no exception here. The writing is superb; it flows wonderfully and it's always brilliantly crafted. The characters were well captured and while I can't comment on whether or not they were in-character with their usual appearances, I do know I got a sense of who each one is.
The initial scene was suitably creepy while setting up the issue, and I loved the final scene with Bruce, particularly the cliffhanger. Nothing here blew me away, but it was all up to your usual standard, and I'll definitely have my eye on this from now on.
Four stars.
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RocketeerZ
Staff 
Don't look at me, it was broken when I got here.
Posts: 379
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Post by RocketeerZ on Mar 5, 2008 15:34:29 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Wonder Woman at all. She's on that list of characters that just irk the hell out of me. For some reason she's often written as pompous and overbearing.
However, it's Charlie here... and with a new arc I decided to give it a try.
I seriously enjoyed the stuff with the land of the dead and especially liked the scene with Ares and Charon. Batman being controlled by Hades should be one heck of a situation, so Diana has her hands full for the next issue.
Solid and well written. I'll be back for the next issue!
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Post by zirron on Mar 5, 2008 20:44:33 GMT -5
It's great to see Ramon's art for this book again. Art is tremendous.
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Post by starlord on Mar 5, 2008 22:10:30 GMT -5
The Art on this was great, and the story was outstanding. I envy all the writers of this book since I wouldn't have a clue how to write a book with so rich a mythos.
This story uses the rich history that has come before it, and for that it deserves five stars alone, but the tight writing and the chilling ending sends it through the roof.
Wonderful job! Get it... "wonderful"? ;D
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david1
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by david1 on Mar 6, 2008 5:49:06 GMT -5
*starts throwing rotten tomatoes*
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Post by David on Mar 6, 2008 10:13:20 GMT -5
I'm not going to hurl rotten tomatoes, but I'm not throwing laurel wreaths yet, either.
Wonder Woman is a hard title to write, and Charlie has made a good effort here. Dialogue and characterization need some work, but it's obvious a lot of research went into this.
I want to express my continued annoyance at Charlie's reliance upon guest-stars to drive a story--- let the character and the plot do that!
Terrific cover by Ramon--- his influence is even felt in the story.
Looking forward to seeing where this story is going. I'll be back next issue!
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Post by arcalian on Mar 6, 2008 22:58:43 GMT -5
I didn't mind seeing Donna or Bruce here. Though I am a bit worried for Bruce at the moment!
Celestial politics isn't my favorite thing, but you wrote it well. I get the feeling that Ares will not stay where Hades put him for very long...
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RocketeerZ
Staff
Don't look at me, it was broken when I got here.
Posts: 379
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Post by RocketeerZ on Mar 7, 2008 9:11:46 GMT -5
I want to express my continued annoyance at Charlie's reliance upon guest-stars to drive a story--- let the character and the plot do that! You know Dave, I have to disagree with this... I don't think guest-stars are being used to drive the story as much as it's a perfect example of the shared universe where it would be impossible for these characters to NOT come into constant contact with each other. One of the reasons I've been using a large cast over on BOOSTER GOLD (and if you haven't been reading it, PLEASE go over and give it a try!) because I believe that inter-mingling the various DC2 characters is a stregnth, not a weakness. The Donna appearance in this issue was actually fairly natural. I would consider Donna a "cast member" of a Wonder Woman book, just like Robin and Nightwing would (and should) be considered cast-members of any Batman title. I thought that having Diana travel to Gotham and involving Batman was actually an excellent idea, because it felt smooth and unforced. While I agree with you that a book's main character should be the focus of the title he/she is in (something I think I've slipped a little with over at BG) I think that infusing other DC2 characters into the mix of a plot is a good thing. It also would be a drawing point to people who might not be fans of that main character... a guest star gets someone to read an issue they other-wise might not have, and who knows? They might get hooked anyway and stick with the title after that guest start is gone. It's also fun as hell to plop in different characters. And fun is the name of the game here, right? |
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Post by lissilambe on Mar 7, 2008 15:13:45 GMT -5
It was a good story, but I could only give it three stars. Part of the reason were choices made by the writer that didn't excite me, some of it is out of his hands, as personal dlslikes of this Wonder Woman mythos DC2 uses. I'm just not a fan of Hades as a villain. That's just me. Every time I see someone use Hades as a bad guy, it turns me off. It's so obvious, and it's so clear where the idea is coming from (death=bad), and it's just not what his mythological background was like. He could be occasionally petty, but he wasn't evil either. So that's a mark down. I'm a fan of Wonder Woman the super-hero. That doesn't mean she shouldn't play with the myths she's built on, because that would be silly. It does mean that seeing her running around with tremendous superhuman strength, and bracelets of deflection and mastery of unarmed combat while carting a shield and sword and spear and the like irks me. I don't like the armed and armored Wonder Woman, not as a regular occurrence. When it's big...when it's bad...when the threat is on too grand a scale, then it's fine. It helps to mark the moment as "a big deal" when we see her armor up. But just running around as a regular thing? She has way too many abilities and standard tools to draw on for her to need to be running around with all the extras. Otherwise, most of this story is pretty good: aside from my problem with Hades' usage, I do like the cosmological politicking, and the way the gods are reacting to it all. The usual wonderfully creepy and disturbing scenes that Charlie does so well are on full display here. Characterization is pretty well nailed down. Pacing is good, the slow build is well-handled. "Mediate" should be "meditate" but othewrise, no real grammar issues.  Now for the discussion on guest-stars: 50% of this book reads like a Batman story. Setting it in Gotham, using the Reaper, Batman's appearance in it...even when Batman wasn't in it, the moment his rogues and his integral settings (Arkham) are used, it's a Batman story. In that regard, I have to agree with David, and wish that a different rogue/setting could have been used. I don't mind Donna's presence: she should be a supporting character in WW. Batman...especially in the way he and his elements were used took a significant percentage of the book away from Diana. Especially in a debut issue, that was disappointing. And Pat, your vast and constant use of guest-stars is one of the reasons I had to give up on Booster Gold. I wanted to read Booster's story, not a team book. So I have to disagree with your usage as you stated it. Guest-stars are fine if occasional, and if the situation warrants. There was no warranting in the case of WW, and yeah, we have a shared universe...but I want to read Wonder Woman. Not Diana and the Supremes. Anyway, despite some difficulties, I want to stress that this was a very solid start for the new run, and it's clear that the storyline building up in here should be suitably epic and mythic for Wonder Woman (as it should be) and it's nice to see a solid handling of her and her cosmology. Take care Don |
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RocketeerZ
Staff
Don't look at me, it was broken when I got here.
Posts: 379
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Post by RocketeerZ on Mar 7, 2008 15:39:15 GMT -5
Now for the discussion on guest-stars: 50% of this book reads like a Batman story. Setting it in Gotham, using the Reaper, Batman's appearance in it...even when Batman wasn't in it, the moment his rogues and his integral settings (Arkham) are used, it's a Batman story. In that regard, I have to agree with David, and wish that a different rogue/setting could have been used. I don't mind Donna's presence: she should be a supporting character in WW. Batman...especially in the way he and his elements were used took a significant percentage of the book away from Diana. Especially in a debut issue, that was disappointing. And Pat, your vast and constant use of guest-stars is one of the reasons I had to give up on Booster Gold. I wanted to read Booster's story, not a team book. So I have to disagree with your usage as you stated it. Guest-stars are fine if occasional, and if the situation warrants. There was no warranting in the case of WW, and yeah, we have a shared universe...but I want to read Wonder Woman. Not Diana and the Supremes. I hear ya Don... and you have valid points. Like you and I have discussed in the past, I think I went too extreme and it took away (to a point) from the lead (however, Issue #8 kicks off a whole new dstoryline that will be a solo Booster story without the supporting cast really at all... come back and try it out!). For Charlie's story... I didn't feel like it was a Batman story at any point. I thought the way it read it was quite obvious that Diana was the main focus, with Batman in a secondary role. I have to disagree that the setting of Gotham and the use of an old Batman foe makes it a Batman story. To say that is to say we have to shoe-horn Wonder Woman into plots where she's only on Paradise Island or in her home town and only fighting Wonder Woman based villians. To me, part of the interging conflict that Diana will have to resolve is now facing off against a "possessed" Batman. That is something I am interested in reading... and as someone who doesn't LIKE Wonder Woman, that can only be a positive, because I will read the next issue. Even with the large cast I have been using on Booster Gold... when the focus is still on a particular character... and the character is the center of each scene and the plot... I feel that "guest stars" or supporting characters can only ENHANCE things... not take the focus away. To each his own! |
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Post by lissilambe on Mar 7, 2008 15:51:48 GMT -5
Normally, I think you'd be right by and large, Pat. If this were Manhunter Kate Spencer's title, and she popped up tracking down a dead foe of Hawkman's, you'd probably be right.
The problem is with Batman (and Superman). And Wonder Woman if she were in the position Batman is being used right now. It was summed up beautifully in a discussion quoted by Mark Waid in the "Revelations" book of the Kingdom Come slipcase. Basically, he wasn't really interested in the writing job until he had a scene of Superman being given Clark's glasses. Then it all clicked and he got excited. And while writing it, and got to the scene of Superman's return (I believe that's the scene, though I'm just going from ancient, and faulty, memory), he told the editor "This is a Superman story". And the editor said, "Duh! Anytime you have SUperman in a story, it by default becomes a Superman story. He's just that big." And I think by and large, that's correct, and the same holds true for Batman, and for Wonder Woman. They're just so huge, and such powerful archetypal figures that they tend to dominate stories that include them. Batman is just a larger figure than Diana is, and I do feel he subsumes the parts of the story that include him and his realm. Think about it: while she was in Gotham, she was thinking about Batman, and while she was in Gotham and battling Reaper, wast he reader going "When does Batman appear?" That's an indicator. I think anyway.
Take care
Don
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:12:19 GMT -5
The issue was definitely really good. I loved the scene with Charon and Ares... definitely well crafted. I can't wait to see the tale unfold with the Reaper. The Ares/Charon scene came quickly with this story. I wanted something to really... I don't know, show the direction I was going. Steep myself in the mythology (and yes, I know that in places I failed...) and make a story that is fun to read. Bringing in Hades at the end of the first book... surprised me. You and others... Wasn't he dead? Well done. Thanks! Having seen the cover for #22... It's awesome as usual. I can't wait to see further from this new team. Ramon is awesome, and he's playing a role in the way I write this book! His art is inspiring. I hope so! |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:14:53 GMT -5
Well, first thing's first; I must confess I am not usually a Wonder Woman fan. It's not that I dislike DIana, it's just that I have little experience of her or her cast, so I'm generally not well versed on comicdom's premiere super-heroine. But I've enjoyed basically everything else you've ever written, Charlie, so I guess there's no time like the present. Glad you leapt on board, Kevin, always good to hear from you. And you don't like Wonder Woman? Well, to each their own... And indeed, there was no exception here. The writing is superb; it flows wonderfully and it's always brilliantly crafted. The characters were well captured and while I can't comment on whether or not they were in-character with their usual appearances, I do know I got a sense of who each one is. Yeah! Thanks man, I really tried hard with this piece. The initial scene was suitably creepy while setting up the issue, and I loved the final scene with Bruce, particularly the cliffhanger. Nothing here blew me away, but it was all up to your usual standard, and I'll definitely have my eye on this from now on. I have to admit, a lot of this was exposition, setting the pieces where I want them ready for the next move, but I hope to blow you away next issue, or with #24, or, especially #25, which I'm writing right now. NO, YOU'RE FOUR STARS! |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:16:27 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of Wonder Woman at all. She's on that list of characters that just irk the hell out of me. For some reason she's often written as pompous and overbearing. Only in the wrong hands!! However, it's Charlie here... and with a new arc I decided to give it a try. I'm glad! Stick around...!!! I seriously enjoyed the stuff with the land of the dead and especially liked the scene with Ares and Charon. Batman being controlled by Hades should be one heck of a situation, so Diana has her hands full for the next issue. Yes she does. As well as in #24. #26. #27. #28. #29. Solid and well written. I'll be back for the next issue! You best be, Nestor!! |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:16:56 GMT -5
It's great to see Ramon's art for this book again. Art is tremendous. Yes. Yes it is... But I said that already  |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:18:03 GMT -5
The Art on this was great, and the story was outstanding. I envy all the writers of this book since I wouldn't have a clue how to write a book with so rich a mythos. Honestly, Brian, I'm sure you'd find a way to excel. Maybe she could visit Las Vegas. And... Uh... Something awful happen to her. That's what you do, right?  This story uses the rich history that has come before it, and for that it deserves five stars alone, but the tight writing and the chilling ending sends it through the roof. Thanks!! Wonderful job! Get it... "wonderful"? ;D LAWL! |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:20:19 GMT -5
*starts throwing rotten tomatoes* ... Right, moving on to more valid words-- |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:29:55 GMT -5
I'm not going to hurl rotten tomatoes, but I'm not throwing laurel wreaths yet, either. Yeah, because throwing rotten tomatoes is just plain rude! Wonder Woman is a hard title to write, and Charlie has made a good effort here. Dialogue and characterization need some work, but it's obvious a lot of research went into this. I'm working on it! I want to express my continued annoyance at Charlie's reliance upon guest-stars to drive a story--- let the character and the plot do that! Ok, this is all I'm going to say on the topic, as I know that everyone else has weighed in, and I'm not going to weigh on what other people have said to weigh in, so let me just weigh in on this first. *gasssssp* I find that the best way for ME to get a feel for characters is to play them off against other characters. I get a better handle on their voices through their interactions. Now, you can say that that is stupid, or I could play them off against OCs or whatever, but I prefer to do it with established characters that have a voice of their own. If you look at my other books, I tend to do this for the first issue or so just to establish myself with their voice, and move on (Batman #0-1, and #11-12, and I'm sure elsewhere), or focus so intently on the main character and then make awful mistakes like removing them from their own book (Action Comics #15+, I do believe), or focus so intently on them alone and then screw it up (Hey, Iron Man #1 came out on the Marvel2! Check it out!). Now, I can make all the excuses like "this is my style", "this is what I do", but they're not all excuses. "This is what I do." And it tends to work for me. I understand what Don said about "Making this a Batman story", and I don't necessarily agree, but hey, let's just focus on moving forward. I've taken into consideration what you've all said, and #23 is radically different for it. You broke me. Terrific cover by Ramon--- his influence is even felt in the story. There's a reason behind that. Looking forward to seeing where this story is going. I'll be back next issue! To break me even more?  I'm fine. Honestly. |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:31:31 GMT -5
I didn't mind seeing Donna or Bruce here. Though I am a bit worried for Bruce at the moment! Donna will be back! She's Diana's sister, isn't she? In whatever way or form we choose in the DC2  So yes, she'll be a major part of the book. Especially in the third arc I have planned. With a certain Doctor. *erhem* Who? Celestial politics isn't my favorite thing, but you wrote it well. I get the feeling that Ares will not stay where Hades put him for very long... hehehahahahaha! heh. Hades. |
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Post by HoM on Mar 11, 2008 8:34:12 GMT -5
It was a good story, but I could only give it three stars. Part of the reason were choices made by the writer that didn't excite me, some of it is out of his hands, as personal dlslikes of this Wonder Woman mythos DC2 uses. Don! Don't let the man get me down  I'm just not a fan of Hades as a villain. That's just me. Every time I see someone use Hades as a bad guy, it turns me off. It's so obvious, and it's so clear where the idea is coming from (death=bad), and it's just not what his mythological background was like. He could be occasionally petty, but he wasn't evil either. So that's a mark down. Ok, I can accept that. I'm a fan of Wonder Woman the super-hero. That doesn't mean she shouldn't play with the myths she's built on, because that would be silly. It does mean that seeing her running around with tremendous superhuman strength, and bracelets of deflection and mastery of unarmed combat while carting a shield and sword and spear and the like irks me. I don't like the armed and armored Wonder Woman, not as a regular occurrence. When it's big...when it's bad...when the threat is on too grand a scale, then it's fine. It helps to mark the moment as "a big deal" when we see her armor up. But just running around as a regular thing? She has way too many abilities and standard tools to draw on for her to need to be running around with all the extras. I'm completely keeping that in mind now. Otherwise, most of this story is pretty good: aside from my problem with Hades' usage, I do like the cosmological politicking, and the way the gods are reacting to it all. The usual wonderfully creepy and disturbing scenes that Charlie does so well are on full display here. Characterization is pretty well nailed down. Pacing is good, the slow build is well-handled. "Mediate" should be "meditate" but othewrise, no real grammar issues. Thanks. I apparently do weird and creepy very well. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Anyway, despite some difficulties, I want to stress that this was a very solid start for the new run, and it's clear that the storyline building up in here should be suitably epic and mythic for Wonder Woman (as it should be) and it's nice to see a solid handling of her and her cosmology. Take care Don Thanks Don!! |
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So yes, she'll be a major part of the book. Especially in the third arc I have planned.