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Post by Merai on May 8, 2009 17:32:59 GMT -5
So what are people thinking? Since this was a pretty hyped series?
Personally, I confess myself underwhelmed. As a vocal fan of the Flash, Barry Allen, Geoff Johns and Van Sciver this should have been perfect for me but... it isn't. And there's lots of elements of it I should love- lots of speedsters, they're hintiong at MAX! coming back, some cool concepts... But I'm still hugely underwhelmed. And I think I've narrowed the reasons why down to three;
1) The art is not Sciver's best. I get that the idea is to do lightning instead of the yellow on the costume fr Barry... but I don't like it at all. It feels like a rip-off of GL's floating symbol. And it just doesn't work for me. I don't mind it if Flash crackles with lightning, but lightning instead of the yellow on his costume does not look right at all.
2) The retcon. This new change to Barry's past is an extremely bad move, IMO. Framing his dad? Killing his mother? Not only was it entirely unnecessary, not only does it blatantly contradict establioshec continuity (Referenced by Johns *himself* before!) but it's a tired, cliché addition at that. Tragedy in his backstory is NOT what Barry needs- espcially not when he already has it via the events of his title pre-Crisis.
3) Barry. He's... not Barry. And in a series about Barry, that's pretty damn important. The Barry Allen we saw for about 5 pages in Final Crisis was perfect (That grin, the certainty, the 'Flash Fact')- this one, the one who has no time for Iris, who is always on the move, who is uncertain and unsure and self-conscious. I get that he's still unused to being back but... he's not Barry at all to me.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Ammunition88 on May 8, 2009 18:20:56 GMT -5
I'll agree with you there. Barry definitely isn't Barry and I can see why that would upset you.
As for me, I never liked Barry anyway, but I still see reason to be upset. So, I kind of like this Barry a little, but what pisses me off is this isn't Barry!
I mean, you're basically replacing Wally (the only person I'll ever recognize as Flash) with the "iconic" Barry who isn't even acting like himself!
If you have to change a characters personality completely in order to bring them back, why bother? Especially when you've got a perfectly good character in place anyway!
Anyway, that's my say in the matter. I'm reading Rebirth because I want to make sure I'm up to date and that's it. After Barry's Flash series kicks off, I won't be reading.
-Cam-
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Post by David on May 8, 2009 19:40:32 GMT -5
I loved the Pre-Crisis Barry. Wally will always be Kid Flash to me (no one ever wrote him as well as Marv)--- of course, I didn't read comics for almost the entirety of Wally's run as the Flash, so maybe I'm not the best judge...
But to me, Barry will always be the Flash. And the guy in this series is not Barry, as Kevin said. In fact, I pretty much agree with Kevin across the board. Van Sciver's faces look off, Barry's a jerk, there's no fun or anticipation in this title, only dread...
The thing about Johns is, when he's on, he's right on (Hawkman, Green Lantern, Action Comics, most of his JSA run), but when he's off, he is way off (Infinite Crisis, Thy Kingdom Come, Teen Titans)... As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on the Flash, but it doesn't look good (and Johns has a hard time sticking the landing).
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Post by Ammunition88 on May 9, 2009 0:34:44 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you there, Dave. While I do agree that Marv wrote Wally exceptionally well, my favorite Wally writer will always be Mark Waid. His Flash run was the most fun I ever had reading the Flash title. I wish he'd come back for another shot at it, but I really don't see that happening...
And I'll also agree with you on the fact that, when Johns is off, he's way off... his portrayal of Batman is just terrible. I cringe every time I see Batman in a Johns comic.
But, I have to disagree with Thy Kingdom Come. I thought it was a very well done story. Granted it took way too long to play out and it could've been summed up smaller number of books (as a lot of comics can) but still, I enjoyed it.
And, I don't really blame him for Crisis. I blame Didio for that trainwreck. I think if Johns had had total free-reign on it, it would have been much better, but, we'll never know for sure. And hey, you have to admit, it's a heck of a lot better than Final Crisis could ever hope to be!....but then, what isn't? lol
-Cam-
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Post by Merai on May 9, 2009 5:10:57 GMT -5
. And hey, you have to admit, it's a heck of a lot better than Final Crisis could ever hope to be!....but then, what isn't? lol See, I actually liked Final Crisis quite a bit more. It had both the best of Morrison and the worst of Morrison- meaning that the story, by and large, was excellent, but the story telling was frequently a jumbled mess. He writes a wonderful Darkseid and a great Barry Allen, which may have coloured my views... I grew up with Wally as the Flash, but I've read plenty of back issues. So I'd go for a compromise position- I think that as legacy heroes go, Wally is the ultimate, the best, the one sidekick who truly replaced his mentor and where the series did not suffer at all for it. And in some respects, Wally grew more as a character than almost any other DC or Marvel hero has. Now, that said, I really, really love Barry Allen, and I can absoloutely understand why people wanted him back. My problem is the same as the one Mark Waid expressed, and he said it better than I could; if Barry is back, then I'm not entirely sure what Wally's purpose is except to be the guy who isn't Barry. Normally, if there's anyone I'd trust to fix that, it would be Johns... but.. Have to agree with Ammo here, Dave- I actually prefer Mark Waid's Wally. Defined the character, IMO.  Absoloutely agreed, except I'm not entirely sure I'd stick all of 'Action' in the 'right' secton. 'Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes' was too much legion, not enough Superman for my tastes, and New Krypton was.... not very good, to say the least. Also, another complaint about 'Rebirth' while I think of it- Jay Garrick saying "Barry Allen made me the Flash"? Yeah, no. Wally can say that. Hell, Bart could say that. No way in hell did Barry Allen make Jay Garrick the Flash, and the logic behind the sentence doesn't even make sense. A misguided bit of Barry-worship there. |
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Post by David on May 9, 2009 8:07:02 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you there, Dave. While I do agree that Marv wrote Wally exceptionally well, my favorite Wally writer will always be Mark Waid. His Flash run was the most fun I ever had reading the Flash title. I wish he'd come back for another shot at it, but I really don't see that happening... Could be. I haven't read his run. All I know is, the only time I've cared about the character (including reading most of Johns' modern run) is when Marve wrote him in NTT. You gotta admit though, offering Batman a Sinestro Corp ring was brilliant...! It was a mess! It went all over the place, plotwise, portrayed people out of character, rambled on way too long, and did not explore the potential of Earth-2 JSI or the Third World. That's Johns' main problem as plotter: the follow-through. We get tips of the iceberg with him, some nice lines of dialogue, the promise of an interesting set-up, then a let-down ending. That being said, I am fan, because when he does deliver, he delivers better than just about anybody else. Well, I don't know about that (is Didio is the scapegoat everytime a writer let's us down?)... I will never forgive Johns for what he did to Superman of E2. NEVER. That was akin to sacrilege. I will admit no such thing! Final Crisis, even when I didn't understand it, challenged and entertained me. It could have been executed better, for sure, but on the whole, I enjoyed the story very much, at least as much as IC--- and it certainly ended better (inasmuch as I understand it  ). |
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impulseallen
Staff 
Much More Than The Guy Runs Fast and the Guy Who Talks to Fish!
Posts: 561
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Post by impulseallen on May 9, 2009 8:57:27 GMT -5
I've been enjoying Flash:Rebirth but compared to the first two issues of GL:Rebirth this has been a tad bit dissapointing. I'm a bit ticked about the Barry's parents retcon too. It feels forced and honestly can't we have a hero who didn't have a tragic past? I mean come on! I am very much enjoying the Black Flash angle though as I always felt he was a bit underrused since he was introduced. Praying #3 picks up the story and makes it blow my mind as GL:Rebirth did...
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Post by Ammunition88 on May 9, 2009 10:00:12 GMT -5
Well, Dave we can bat these things back and forth all day (or all week lol) the point is, we can agree on at least one thing. This isn't Barry we're reading in Rebirth, it's some new guy who happens to look like Barry.
For now, let's focus on what we can agree on. I hate arguing opinions on comic arcs lol
-Cam-
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Post by Brandon on May 9, 2009 10:13:59 GMT -5
My problem is the same as the one Mark Waid expressed, and he said it better than I could; if Barry is back, then I'm not entirely sure what Wally's purpose is except to be the guy who isn't Barry. Normally, if there's anyone I'd trust to fix that, it would be Johns... but.. That's the same as saying what is the point of Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Roy Harper, Kyle Rayner, etc. I think there is enough room for both characters. I would like to see Wally's role redefined somewhat however to better make that distinction. I wouldn't be offended if they decided to put him back into the Dark Flash costume from Mark Waid's 'Alternate Earth Wally' stories. I always liked that one. It think it was a simple matter of Jay saying Barry made even him want to be a better hero. Just as he said Barry and Wally taught each other a few things, I think it's fair to say he could as easily have said that about himself and Barry as well. |
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Post by Brandon on May 9, 2009 10:35:47 GMT -5
Well, I don't know about that (is Didio is the scapegoat everytime a writer let's us down?)... I will never forgive Johns for what he did to Superman of E2. NEVER. That was akin to sacrilege. I agree. That's just not the sort of way you send the first superhero ever off the stage. But on the bright side, Blackest Night looks like it might give a number of characters a second chance. I liked Final Crisis all the way up until the last issue. Where Morrison should have delivered a satisfying final punch we got a bunch of distraction and hand-waving instead. It was exactly the wrong time to decide to go experimental and play with the sequential narrative. So I thought it was a letdown in that regard. Infinite Crisis failed for a whole different reason. DC fumbled the ball on the restoration of the Multiverse, the series became the dark and gritty story it started out poking at, and the entire interconnected event mentality had the entire DC line going in a direction that lost my interest completely. So where Morrison failed in clear storytelling on the FC climax, IC failed on in a more basic and widespread way for me. And as Didio had been putting himself at the middle of the success leading up to it he also took the blame when it fell flat. |
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Post by Brandon on May 9, 2009 10:53:38 GMT -5
I enjoyed Flash: Rebirth but that might be a simple matter of it being the story I've been waiting to read for over 20 years. Barry is definitely out of character but being as he's come back from being dead/speedforced for a very long time it's not entirely unexpected. This is his arc to find his place in the world again so as long as he comes out the other side as the hero I've loved since I was a kid then I'll be fine with it. If the intention (as some of the set-up with his parents suggests) is to skew him into a darker, more pensive character for the long-run then that will definitely be a major misstep. But this comic finally gave me all my favorite Flash characters in one place! How could I not enjoy it? And I'm really glad Savitar's return only lasted a few pages. I've always hated that character.  |
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Post by Merai on May 10, 2009 7:49:47 GMT -5
That's the same as saying what is the point of Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Roy Harper, Kyle Rayner, etc. I think there is enough room for both characters. See, I don't think it is the same. Except for Kyle, none of those characters ever really replaced the original, they were protégés. Wally actually became the Flash, inherited his cities, his Rogues, large chunks of his supporting cast etc. And actually I'd say Kyle is the example of what I don't want to happen- since Hal's return, Kyle was massively sidelined. That was alleviated with GLC, but I doubt DC are going to give the Flash two titles... If that was what was intended, then yeah it's fair enough- but badly expressed. Jay Garrick saying "Barry Allen made me the Flash" doesn't seem very ambiguous, and it's just... it's wrong. What Dave was saying about E2 Superman's crappy treatment being blasphemy? To me, saying Barry Allen made Jay Garrick the Flash is blasphemy. I guess it was probably worsened because so much of this issue was spent on "Boy, isn't Barry wonderful!", which seems a classic case of telling, not showing. |
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Post by brigante133 on May 13, 2009 3:30:58 GMT -5
I liked Final Crisis all the way up until the last issue. Where Morrison should have delivered a satisfying final punch we got a bunch of distraction and hand-waving instead. It was exactly the wrong time to decide to go experimental and play with the sequential narrative. So I thought it was a letdown in that regard. Infinite Crisis failed for a whole different reason. DC fumbled the ball on the restoration of the Multiverse, the series became the dark and gritty story it started out poking at, and the entire interconnected event mentality had the entire DC line going in a direction that lost my interest completely. So where Morrison failed in clear storytelling on the FC climax, IC failed on in a more basic and widespread way for me. And as Didio had been putting himself at the middle of the success leading up to it he also took the blame when it fell flat.[/quote] Sigh... It seems like only yesterday we fought tooth and nail over the merits of Infinite Crisis. While now, I will concede that you were PARTIALLY right in that it was derivative and overly dark and gritty, I maintain that it was pretty good though by this point a lot of my appreciation for that series came from nostalgia. Still though, I'm right, f*ck off. ANYWAYS, I think I was absent if there was any sort of Final Crisis debate but I have to disagree with you now too. You've gotta keep up with the times, Brandon. You're antiquated notion of how comic books should be told is sooo 20th century. We've moved on, man. What better place to play around with the structure of how stories are told then in a universe that is unstable and could blink out of existance at any moment? What better ending is there than simply hope for a better tomorrow? Even after the evil manipulative god was defeated and the world was still in peril, Superman put his faith in science and knowledge and the universe put itself back into a position that evil would be defeated because blah blah blah, its complicated. Needless to say I liked it. Then again, so did you aside from one issue so this isn't much of an argument at all. Then there was Flash Rebirth. I can easiliy say that while a bunch of other books got me into comics in a serious way, it wasn't till Green Lantern Rebirth that I was hooked. Not before then did I buy comics MONTHLY and on Wednesdays so when I heard that the same team would be back to do another "Rebirth" series for the Flash, I was pretty excited. But... now I'm starting to realize, that whereas I knew a pretty large amount about the Green Lantern mythos even back then, I still know close to nothing about The Flash. And that might be the reason I am less inclined to like this book as it is because like Merai, I was completely underwhelmed by the first two issues. Whereas every issue of GL:R had pretty equal focus on the different Green Lanterns with a tad more focus on Hal for obvious reasons, Flash doesn't seem to be following from its footsteps. Both Ethan Van Sciver and Geoff Johns admitted their love for Barry in interviews before this series hit stands and their love is pretty clear for all to see here as they agonize over telling the reader how cool Barry is. Every team gathers because they are happy the dude's back and rambles on about how the dude rules and he walks around being sort of the cool non challant loner that totally won't by into his own hype because there is some serious business to get done. What is that business exactly? For the first issue, it would seem that business is walking around with a stern face until he vaporizes Savitar and in the second issue its calling the place of the vaporization a crime scene (no shit... you just vaporized a dude) and then uh... thinking about how come he wore a bow tie. Don't worry though, its not because he was a loveable square the way people seem to remember, it was because he was so awesome he didn't own a tie. Eh... whatever. I'm willing to forgive the nauseating self-indulgence of the creators to make a character seem important and relevant again if its done well and at this point, it still has my interest. I'm just a little less excited for issue 3 than I was 1 and subsequently 2. That's cool though, they SPOILER reveal that Barry is Black Flash this issue, that's pretty cool. As long as he's not around for the rest of the new 4 issues this series has left, I don't think it'll be overkill. Oh, hey, you see that cover to the newly announced sixth issue?   at least it isn't something lame, like a painfully obvious and hastily drawn homage to that Flash of two worlds cover.   Haha. Also Merai, how dare you say such things about Kyle Rayner's current place in the DCU? Dude is the main guy in GLC right now which I think is far better than the "Hal Jordan experiences the wonders of the crayon box" storyline that the main title has been for the last odd year or so. How many people got their tongues ripped out in that book? ;D |
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Post by Merai on May 13, 2009 17:13:20 GMT -5
Haha. Also Merai, how dare you say such things about Kyle Rayner's current place in the DCU? Dude is the main guy in GLC right now which I think is far better than the "Hal Jordan experiences the wonders of the crayon box" storyline that the main title has been for the last odd year or so. How many people got their tongues ripped out in that book? ;D I'm actually a huge fan of GLC, and it has been better than GL proper since Sinestro Corps War. (I, stupidly enough, dropped it back then but have since made up for my mistake and bought all the back issues!) BUT... there's no question it's a much less high profile title than Gl. And he shares it with Guy and the others. And he's definitely not the 'main' GL, or even close to it... I think it's hard to argue that he hasn't been sidelined since Hal came back. |
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impulseallen
Staff
Much More Than The Guy Runs Fast and the Guy Who Talks to Fish!
Posts: 561
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Post by impulseallen on May 13, 2009 19:25:25 GMT -5
Sigh... It seems like only yesterday we fought tooth and nail over the merits of Infinite Crisis. While now, I will concede that you were PARTIALLY right in that it was derivative and overly dark and gritty, I maintain that it was pretty good though by this point a lot of my appreciation for that series came from nostalgia. Still though, I'm right, f*ck off. ANYWAYS, I think I was absent if there was any sort of Final Crisis debate but I have to disagree with you now too. You've gotta keep up with the times, Brandon. You're antiquated notion of how comic books should be told is sooo 20th century. We've moved on, man. What better place to play around with the structure of how stories are told then in a universe that is unstable and could blink out of existance at any moment? What better ending is there than simply hope for a better tomorrow? Even after the evil manipulative god was defeated and the world was still in peril, Superman put his faith in science and knowledge and the universe put itself back into a position that evil would be defeated because blah blah blah, its complicated. Needless to say I liked it. Then again, so did you aside from one issue so this isn't much of an argument at all. Then there was Flash Rebirth. I can easiliy say that while a bunch of other books got me into comics in a serious way, it wasn't till Green Lantern Rebirth that I was hooked. Not before then did I buy comics MONTHLY and on Wednesdays so when I heard that the same team would be back to do another "Rebirth" series for the Flash, I was pretty excited. But... now I'm starting to realize, that whereas I knew a pretty large amount about the Green Lantern mythos even back then, I still know close to nothing about The Flash. And that might be the reason I am less inclined to like this book as it is because like Merai, I was completely underwhelmed by the first two issues. Whereas every issue of GL:R had pretty equal focus on the different Green Lanterns with a tad more focus on Hal for obvious reasons, Flash doesn't seem to be following from its footsteps. Both Ethan Van Sciver and Geoff Johns admitted their love for Barry in interviews before this series hit stands and their love is pretty clear for all to see here as they agonize over telling the reader how cool Barry is. Every team gathers because they are happy the dude's back and rambles on about how the dude rules and he walks around being sort of the cool non challant loner that totally won't by into his own hype because there is some serious business to get done. What is that business exactly? For the first issue, it would seem that business is walking around with a stern face until he vaporizes Savitar and in the second issue its calling the place of the vaporization a crime scene (no shit... you just vaporized a dude) and then uh... thinking about how come he wore a bow tie. Don't worry though, its not because he was a loveable square the way people seem to remember, it was because he was so awesome he didn't own a tie. Eh... whatever. I'm willing to forgive the nauseating self-indulgence of the creators to make a character seem important and relevant again if its done well and at this point, it still has my interest. I'm just a little less excited for issue 3 than I was 1 and subsequently 2. That's cool though, they SPOILER reveal that Barry is Black Flash this issue, that's pretty cool. As long as he's not around for the rest of the new 4 issues this series has left, I don't think it'll be overkill. Oh, hey, you see that cover to the newly announced sixth issue? at least it isn't something lame, like a painfully obvious and hastily drawn homage to that Flash of two worlds cover. Haha. Also Merai, how dare you say such things about Kyle Rayner's current place in the DCU? Dude is the main guy in GLC right now which I think is far better than the "Hal Jordan experiences the wonders of the crayon box" storyline that the main title has been for the last odd year or so. How many people got their tongues ripped out in that book? ;D Actually that first image is the varaint cover to #3. |
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