Post by brokenmystic on Feb 26, 2009 12:56:05 GMT -5
@ Chris,
The problem with your "reverse sexism" argument is that not every man is expected to be big and buff. Male actors, for example, can outlast actresses in movies because they're not limited to a certain kind of body image. Sean Connery still made action movies way after his prime years, while Nicole Kidman will one day be limited to playing moms, step-moms, and aunts, etc. And who suffers from eating disorders more? Men or women? The statistics answer the question for you.
Someone on Fantasy Magazine brought up a similar point that you made, and there was an excellent response by one of the admins of the site. Her comment is in response to someone who said George Clooney and Will Smith have ideal bodies for males. She wrote: "The difference between you and George Clooney or Will Smith in terms of attractiveness and fitness is a difference that exists in reality. You obviously can’t look like Clooney without some plastic surgery, but you could probably have a body similar to his if you wanted. it’s a matter of being in the same shape he’s in. However, there is no earthly way I or any woman can look like many of the women depicted in comic books. It is anatomically impossible. The way they are drawn, as has been mentioned, is to emphasize to a gross degree those aspects that males tend to find important: breasts, ass, tiny, tiny waist, etc. You can’t compare your inability to be up to the standard of George Clooney to comics at all."
And when I mentioned women "have a 7% chance of being as slim as a catwalk model and a 1% chance of being as thin as a supermodel," I was citing from a research study. I'm not denying that men suffer from poor body image or eating disorders; I'm just pointing out that these are serious issues that need to be examined individually and separately. Comparing men and women in this respect is problematic because it makes the assumption that the problems are exactly the same. Reverse sexism is also flawed because the White middle-to-upper class male is always in control. A man may experience sexism, but it's not the same as a woman experiencing sexism. Men can discriminate against women systematically. There's the whole sexual double standard in our society, where men are called "pimps" and "players" -- relatively positive terms -- if they're sexually promiscuous. Women, on the other hand, are degraded and called "sluts" and "whores" if they have multiple sex partners. You can't say men and women experience the same kind of sexism.
You also wrote "The superhero is an idealized version of human beings and comics are a visual medium."
So the idealized version of a woman is that she has an impossibly perfect body, large breasts, half-naked, and light skinned? After all, that's how the majority of female characters look like.
@ Zirron,
It's no secret that sex sells and I think this represents a problem with our society more than anything. I think sexuality and sensuality are important, but when you see female characters in comic books posing like they're in a Victoria's Secret catalogue, then those images need to questioned. It suggest that in order for a woman to be popular and accepted in society, she needs to have an impossibly perfect body.
Sure, you can say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," but that's not what's valued in mainstream media. We are told that only certain faces, certain body types, and certain shades of skin color are "Beautiful."
You wrote, "Comics are a mirror of our society" and that there are positive messages that anyone of any age can get. I know you said we shouldn't talk about racism, but as a person of color, I feel it's very important to discuss. I'm also a fan of comic books. I also grew up on Batman, Superman, and Spider-man. I was also a huge fan of Frank Miller after I read his "Batman: Year One," but then when I saw "300" and listened to his interview on NPR, I was heartbroken. It's not about "barking up the wrong tree," it's about looking at something from a different point of view and acknowledging the facts. How would *you* feel if you were Middle-Eastern or Muslim and all Frank Miller said about your people was that they're barbarians and could never contribute anything to society? (when actuality, without the contributions of Middle-Eastern civilization, the European enlightenment could not have been shaped in the way it did -- ALL civilizations have helped shape the way the world is now). People of color who grow up in racist societies are hardly taught anything about their own history or culture, and when they start to *believe* this is true, it becomes internalized racism. Same applies to women see these images of impossibly perfect women. They start to think they're not "beautiful" and then internalize these messages.
The problem with your "reverse sexism" argument is that not every man is expected to be big and buff. Male actors, for example, can outlast actresses in movies because they're not limited to a certain kind of body image. Sean Connery still made action movies way after his prime years, while Nicole Kidman will one day be limited to playing moms, step-moms, and aunts, etc. And who suffers from eating disorders more? Men or women? The statistics answer the question for you.
Someone on Fantasy Magazine brought up a similar point that you made, and there was an excellent response by one of the admins of the site. Her comment is in response to someone who said George Clooney and Will Smith have ideal bodies for males. She wrote: "The difference between you and George Clooney or Will Smith in terms of attractiveness and fitness is a difference that exists in reality. You obviously can’t look like Clooney without some plastic surgery, but you could probably have a body similar to his if you wanted. it’s a matter of being in the same shape he’s in. However, there is no earthly way I or any woman can look like many of the women depicted in comic books. It is anatomically impossible. The way they are drawn, as has been mentioned, is to emphasize to a gross degree those aspects that males tend to find important: breasts, ass, tiny, tiny waist, etc. You can’t compare your inability to be up to the standard of George Clooney to comics at all."
And when I mentioned women "have a 7% chance of being as slim as a catwalk model and a 1% chance of being as thin as a supermodel," I was citing from a research study. I'm not denying that men suffer from poor body image or eating disorders; I'm just pointing out that these are serious issues that need to be examined individually and separately. Comparing men and women in this respect is problematic because it makes the assumption that the problems are exactly the same. Reverse sexism is also flawed because the White middle-to-upper class male is always in control. A man may experience sexism, but it's not the same as a woman experiencing sexism. Men can discriminate against women systematically. There's the whole sexual double standard in our society, where men are called "pimps" and "players" -- relatively positive terms -- if they're sexually promiscuous. Women, on the other hand, are degraded and called "sluts" and "whores" if they have multiple sex partners. You can't say men and women experience the same kind of sexism.
You also wrote "The superhero is an idealized version of human beings and comics are a visual medium."
So the idealized version of a woman is that she has an impossibly perfect body, large breasts, half-naked, and light skinned? After all, that's how the majority of female characters look like.
@ Zirron,
It's no secret that sex sells and I think this represents a problem with our society more than anything. I think sexuality and sensuality are important, but when you see female characters in comic books posing like they're in a Victoria's Secret catalogue, then those images need to questioned. It suggest that in order for a woman to be popular and accepted in society, she needs to have an impossibly perfect body.
Sure, you can say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," but that's not what's valued in mainstream media. We are told that only certain faces, certain body types, and certain shades of skin color are "Beautiful."
You wrote, "Comics are a mirror of our society" and that there are positive messages that anyone of any age can get. I know you said we shouldn't talk about racism, but as a person of color, I feel it's very important to discuss. I'm also a fan of comic books. I also grew up on Batman, Superman, and Spider-man. I was also a huge fan of Frank Miller after I read his "Batman: Year One," but then when I saw "300" and listened to his interview on NPR, I was heartbroken. It's not about "barking up the wrong tree," it's about looking at something from a different point of view and acknowledging the facts. How would *you* feel if you were Middle-Eastern or Muslim and all Frank Miller said about your people was that they're barbarians and could never contribute anything to society? (when actuality, without the contributions of Middle-Eastern civilization, the European enlightenment could not have been shaped in the way it did -- ALL civilizations have helped shape the way the world is now). People of color who grow up in racist societies are hardly taught anything about their own history or culture, and when they start to *believe* this is true, it becomes internalized racism. Same applies to women see these images of impossibly perfect women. They start to think they're not "beautiful" and then internalize these messages.
