|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 2, 2007 11:17:19 GMT -5
i thought the brutal maiming of most the second tier characters and beating THE superman to a bloody pulp to death was a perfect way to usher in the new age of nonviolent comics... I AM THE GODDAMN BATMAN, DAMN IT!!! ME!!! I had to ask...and this is the perfect quote for my question, so thanks lantern... You know there was a lot of stuff going on in IC...Why do you guys think DC took the chance to become so violent and crazy? DC was always the cleaner comics company for me...I always felt Marvel was the grittier one of the two. But DC in the last 2 or 3 years has really brought in a lot of maiming (ripping Risk's arm off and Panthra in two), killing (um...everyone who isn't popular anymore) and other situations (raping of Sue Dibny, lesbians galore, team changes and betrayals like Batgirl to the League of Assassins for a while), etc. Kinda reminds me of some of the mid-90s DC comics trying to compete with Marvel and Image's darker heroes and creating that whole Bloodline event with Bloodline heroes... What's the deal? Are they trying to amp it up to compete with Marvel or is DC tired of being squeaky clean? |
|
|
|
Post by David on Apr 2, 2007 12:03:55 GMT -5
Violence, like sex, sells. DC wants the sales Marvel has. Today's comic book audience is not only more sophisticated, but desensitized. If you don't go over the top, the other guy will--- and get the kudos for being " an edgy risk-taker"  . So instead of finding smarter stories, lazy writers will mire a good concept (like, say Civil War or Infinite Crisis) in shocking set pieces, as opposed to developing an actual plot. |
|
|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 2, 2007 12:28:44 GMT -5
Yeah! I mean, it was like every issue of IC had the death of some 2nd and 3rd characters and in Civil War (and Marvel in general) there was so many team break ups and problems and betrayals and deaths (did Bill Foster/Goliath really have to die in that story? His death didn't do much in the end because Iron Man and Reed Richards showed very little sadness/grief/remorse after an issue).
Does anyone think DC will shy away from all of this or will Countdown and WWIII follow in the footsteps of its predecessors?
|
|
|
|
Post by arcalian on Apr 2, 2007 14:05:09 GMT -5
Idlewilder said everything I would have said, only more succinctly and with better emotional control. Crow, given that someone is supposed to die in the very first issue of Countdown, I think you have your answer. Or to put it another way, when Brad Meltzer was writing Identity Crisis, he asked who he could kill. DC have him a whole big list of characters he could off. |
|
|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 2, 2007 22:48:30 GMT -5
Idlewilder said everything I would have said, only more succinctly and with better emotional control. Crow, given that someone is supposed to die in the very first issue of Countdown, I think you have your answer. Or to put it another way, when Brad Meltzer was writing Identity Crisis, he asked who he could kill. DC have him a whole big list of characters he could off. Oh crap...I forgot about that. That's how he picked Sue Dibny out as the "star"/victim of ID C... It's becoming too much though...I'm desensitized to death and I just get pissed that they don't try to revitalize some of these characters. It's harder to make something work than kill them off. Plus, I get pissed when they kill major people because they have the habit of coming back quickly, and I'm a person who thinks that 70 % of comic deaths should be important and left alone if they are a major storyline plot-piece. Hawkeye was gone for a while...and made it back really quickly in subtle ways. So what happened to his big sacrifice? Just a marketing coy. Makes me feel cheated. I'M RAMBLING AND RANTING! |
|
|
|
Post by starlord on Apr 2, 2007 23:05:58 GMT -5
the death end of comics has ticked me off for a long time now. The final nail in the coffin was the "ressurection" of Captain Mar Vel over at Marvel.
Though really you can trace the history of meaningless death all the way back to Jean Grey.
The death of a character should mean something, there should be a sacrafice, and the person should stay dead (unless of course it is the writers intention to bring them back from the very beginning). Thos deaths should be shrouded in mystery to begin with. If there is a body, the person should be dead.
The last two times I actually fell for the "they're really dead" plot was Colossus and Jason Todd. Well both deaths fooled me and I swore not to be fooled again. I wanted to mourn for Superboy during this last crisis... I really did, but some how I just know that they are going to bring him back eventually and once again, what could have been a real and very tragic moment, will have been for naught.
The other problem is that a certain writer can write a death with the idea that this character is gone, but then of course, the book falls into other hands and boom, everything the writer did is just tossed out like old bath water. No respect, I tell you.
|
|
|
|
Post by HoM on Apr 3, 2007 5:53:56 GMT -5
I own The Death of Captain Marvel, and it was one of the most moving pieces of comic book work I've ever seen. Better than anything since, IMO. Better than Watchmen, Identity Crisis, anything... So yeah, when they decided to bring him back, and then kind of forgot about him in Civil War #7? I no longer buy any Marvel books except Ultimates 2.
And that's ending soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by arcalian on Apr 3, 2007 6:31:18 GMT -5
Re Idlwilder: It helps to remember that anybody's intention for a character to stay dead generally doesn't survive a change or two in Editors (which is the reason I think I might eventually start picking up DC again, once Didio goes. It depends on what happens.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 3, 2007 8:22:38 GMT -5
I forgot how pissed I was that they resurrected Mar-vel l after so long. I thought he had one of the most real deaths in comics, and he was left alone for so long. And now...bam. "I...was dead? But now I'm here from before I died? " I hate these stories...
::In really bad Seinfeld impression:: And what's up with the unexplained resurrections? Psyloche came back out of nowhere and went without any explanation. Half the people in IC came back through "punches against the wall" (by far the best plot device ever to explain random events that shouldn't connect). It's like no one is trying.
If I ever get arrested or hurt, I'm going to ask one of you to punch a wall for me so that reality changes and I'm good as new. I expect any of you to answer this call for help. Only good friends would punch a wall and reset reality.
And Starlord, I feel you on the respect thing. I think a good writer or editor should, out of respect, ask the previous writer if their intentions were to leave opening or to kill, for good, a character. Because when a new team does something like resurrection or other changes, it can totally ruin the story of the previous teams.
And Charlie, that's the same as me. I've lost interest in so many Marvel books that I only keep up with Ultimates 2...which ships out only when the mystical isle of Sha-va touches our reality on the fifth full moon of the summer sky...which means forever. I heard the Annihilation stories were good, so I may get those TPBs, but then you have the issue of how many times Galactus has been killed and returned...
Grrr...
|
|
|
|
Post by HoM on Apr 3, 2007 8:24:45 GMT -5
Yeah. Annihiliation, what I read of it, was how you do a crossover. The crossover books were clearly marked, and all the key events occured in the main book. I like the idea of the "Countdown to..." approach, with the four individual minis that lead into a big event. I think it's awesome.
|
|
Dr Dread
Staff 
The Odious-1
Posts: 1,547
|
Post by Dr Dread on Apr 3, 2007 13:04:25 GMT -5
I was raised on 50% American media and 50% European media. It astounds me to this day the amount of violence is allowed in American media, whereas nudity has zero tolerance. But don't get me wrong, I don't want to see DC suddenly publishing pornography. I'm sure we've all seen moments in cinema where nudity has had an important and significant function.
Idlewilder really nailed it when he said:
There are more mature readers these days than ten years ago.
Saying that brief nudity will corrupt children, while showing dismemberments and gore, to me, seems completely absurd.
|
|
|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 4, 2007 8:31:51 GMT -5
Much agreed. I've argued (in discussions or debates) that the freedom we allow in violence and gore is so opposite of what we allow for nudity, whereas in Europe it's not such a big thing (I've seen tons of TV shows and commercials from Europe) and the craziest part is that Europeans haven't been "corrupted" by any of it.
I've seen naked bodies in the media since I was seven or eight (won't get into that) and it didn't change me at all. I didn't grow up a sex offender or whatever they call it, and I didn't ruin my childhood spending all day trying to think about naked women. I actually grew up with less of a taboo for naked people and sex stuff, and became more mature about it earlier than my peers.
Now, I'm all for violence and gore when necessary, but I think it's largely unfair how America balances the two. People go nuts when Justin Timberlake rips off Janet Jackson's breastplate, blames her, and fines her lots of cash. Yet a few hours earlier than that show, when arguably more kids are up and watching TV, I can turn to any cartoon and watch someone getting the crap beat out of them, any movie and watching someone get his head blown off, or any tv show and watch someone get tortured or somesuch.
We have weird standards.
|
|
|
|
Post by brigante133 on Apr 4, 2007 18:39:54 GMT -5
well times being as they are, is there any real difference between sex and violence? arent we just as likely to die from engaging in sexual intercourse as we are a gunshot wound?
yeah, think about that one for awhile... or not, whatever.
|
|
|
|
Post by Crow on Apr 4, 2007 21:23:45 GMT -5
I have a better question: which one would you rather die from? Death by orgasm is a hell of a lot better than death by gunshot wound.
|
|
|
|
Post by brigante133 on Apr 4, 2007 21:54:55 GMT -5
well what if you died doing something really noble as opposed to getting offed the ol' bundy way?
|
|
. So instead of finding smarter stories, lazy writers will mire a good concept (like, say Civil War or Infinite Crisis) in shocking set pieces, as opposed to developing an actual plot.
