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Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 2:26:22 GMT -5
I have mentioned before that I haven't bought comics on a regular basis for almost a year now. I was just burned out and needed a break after IC. Now I am thinking about getting back into some of the stuff I have been missing out on and picking up some back issues. The sad part is that there isn't anything jumping out at me and combine this with the feedback here I am hesitant to venture too far from my comfort zone (JLA, Manhunter, JSA, BOP, and maybe Shadowpact and Checkmate again) I really enjoyed what I read of 52 and I want to get the 30 odd issues to catch up on that. So beyond that I am not sure what else to get. I then stumble across this quote after looking over DC's sales figures OYL and went: "Wow! Does DC suck more then ever or have been gone far too long?" Here is the qoute in question-IC and OYL have been creative disasters that have not led to any noteworthy creative result for any particular character. Quite the opposite actually.
And when you factor in the unnecessary sexualization and violence………..
along with Dan Didio’s “ethnic agenda” (whereby any criticism of the writing of “new” characters can be dismissed asracistt rhetoric)………..
…………..and the ‘glutting’ of the market with new comics with ‘new’ concepts in an atmosphere of decompression and sub-par execution…………..
………….. it is really not at all surprising that DC is failing in impress its audience.
And I will add that not only is the story about a difficulty in launching new titles……… but it also about the failure of DC to maintain the success of clearly established heretofore successful titles!
Why was Batgirl Cancelled?
Why was Flash cancelled and Wally West replaced with a whiner?
Why replace a Green Arrow comic with a GA/Black Canary comic when the problem with Green Arrow has always been Judd Winnick? Why not replace Winick?
Why remove Black Canary from Birds Of Prey when she was the life blood of that title…… on par with Oracle? (Notice that sales continue to drop since Dinah left?)
Why…. in a market that everybody knows is unwelcoming to ‘new’ characters…. introduce a slew of them in Teen Titans and JLA?……… especially after unnecessarily killing off a slew of them in IC?
Why…. if quality of storytelling is to have priority over ‘continuity’……. does DC continue to make ‘continuity’ the actual plot point of the stories…….i.e. Donna Troy, NW, Ion and the Monitor mess?
Why not actually resolve plot points in the series that they actually arose in? (For example…. how did the Trinity suddenly get along at the end of IC? Why does Batman suddenly forgive WW? Why does Superman?…. or does her?? Wasn’t IC supposed to define the pillars of the DCU?…. and if so…. why didn’t it?)
Why benefit did DC gain by becoming more vague in the soliciting of their titles other than giving the impression that they themselves have no idea what they are doing?
Why not hire editors that KNOW the characters they are to edit?
Uhhhgg. The list goes on and on….
The decline is not surprising in the slightest. I am really curious to know what peoples thoughts and opinions are if you have been following DC closely this past year. Is this guy right on the mark or just being negative? I do agree that some of his points are very valid while others are opinions. The easy answer of course is to dump Didio and Wininck and be done with it. But is it that easy? Is a change always better if there isn't someone else who can do the job? I am looking for the positives here as to why I should willingly drop hundreds of dollars back into DC. Where is the bright future I was promised with One Year Later? |
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Mischief
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I Sit Upon My Throne As The Guardian & The Keeper Of The Lightning.
Posts: 1,517
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Post by Mischief on Apr 22, 2007 5:34:39 GMT -5
So some people don't want change. Those people may be the same ones that hated when Dick Grayson became Nightwing. When Nightwing left the Titans and now is apart of the Outsiders. Or that Speedy became Arsenal, went from the Titans to the Outsiders to the JLofA. Same thing with Dinah. Hell she was on the JSA and JLA and BOP. Now she is returning to the JLofA as the chairperson. But some people want her to stay with BOP for what??? Is Dinah DC's version of Wolverine? I like what Winick has done with the Outsiders and Green Arrow. But that is my opinion. But my opinion cost me about over hundred dollars for 38 items that includes one Black Canary bust, one poster, 15 DC books, 9 Marvel books, 7 books from Image, Dark Horse, Devil's Due, and the last five consist of the PREVIEWS book, Thanos figurine, a calendar, a Stargate toy and birthday present for my sister. I put my money were my mouth is monthly. I know that I'm consistly dropping Marvel books month in and out just so I can get my DC books or just tired of Marvel's junk. The whole death of Steve Rogers. I thought of picking it up but realized that Steve Rogers would be brought back to life before his movie hit the big screen. Just like I'm waiting for Peter Parker's id to be put back in the bag. And I know that Spidey won'y kill Kingpin either. My rant has come to an end  Mischief |
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Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 6:46:49 GMT -5
I love DC.
They put out stuff that isn't a bloody joke.
Marvel? It's always big explosions of "LOOK AT US! WE'RE ON THE COLBERT REPORT! LOOK AT US, WE KILLED CAPTAIN AMERICA & HAWKEYE! LOOK AT US, WE DISASSEMBLE EVERYTHING YOU ACTUALLY ENJOY!" and when I was reading last week's New Joe Fridays? Bloody hell. It's just... Stupid. Really bad.
DC are the best out there at the moment. Simply put. Give me any issue of 52 over Mighty/New/Initiative/Classic/Old/Medium/Super Sized Avengers any day.
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Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 6:54:22 GMT -5
I hate this! I loved this book! It was awesome! Really, really good, and I enjoyed Winnick's writing! It was action packed, emotive and full of character! He made Ollie a bad ass! I don't want to get into another fan rant, but truly, Ollie is great, Winnick is great. And come on, it's obvious a GA/BC book is going to sell well.  |
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Mischief
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I Sit Upon My Throne As The Guardian & The Keeper Of The Lightning.
Posts: 1,517
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Post by Mischief on Apr 22, 2007 7:06:25 GMT -5
I hate this! I loved this book! It was awesome! Really, really good, and I enjoyed Winnick's writing! It was action packed, emotive and full of character! He made Ollie a bad ass! I don't want to get into another fan rant, but truly, Ollie is great, Winnick is great. And come on, it's obvious a GA/BC book is going to sell well. Fan Rants are for Newsarama.com Mischief |
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Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 7:10:05 GMT -5
ZING...
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Post by David on Apr 22, 2007 8:59:19 GMT -5
I don't think that DC is doomed, and while they have made some boneheaded moves lately, they're still coming out with some quality products. The fact of the matter is, they're getting their butt handed to them, sales-wise, by Marvel, and when something like that happens, the Besuited Powers That Be will want a business plan on how the company is going to "come back" (and not in a year or two, but next month--- there's too much money at stake, and there's always an eye on this quarter's earning)! The business model seems to be: "If it's not working the way it is now, let's not do it like that anymore!" (which for comics, an industry that is increasingly self-referential when it comes to it's own tradition and continuity, this can be a controversial move). Despite fan cynicism about it, what brings in the most sales? The Big Events, the new #1's, the all-star creative teams--- all of which we're seeing in spades from DC right now. But the sharp increase in sales can never be maintained if it isn't followed up with quality work. Infinite Crisis was an effort to capitalize on the 20th anniversay of Crisis on Infinite Earths (whatever else it was to the company, it was also a sales bonanza), and it theory, a good idea. Put Marv back on the payroll, bring in George Perez-clone Phil Jimenez, and COIE inker Jerry Ordway. Get nostalgic about some characters (Kal-L!), and bring in your most exciting writer... Unfortunately, Infinite Crisis was a mess. Geoff is always better in the promise than the delivery (in most cases), and despite a strong beginning, the story just seemed to go south in the last few issues. On the heels of IC, we have a re-imagined DCU ("We're new and exciting! Come look at us again! See: Blue Beetle is a Latino-Spiderman, Flash is the teen-friendly Bart Allen, and we're finally doing something boldly different with one-note Aquaman!"), just absolutely rife with changes. Some are going to be good, and some are going to be... well, Hawkgirl  . Remember, this status quo shake-up is still in pursuit of piguing the interest of new readers, and not caused by any real creative impulse. With so many radical, drastic changes flying around, the law of averages will tell you that some will work, but most will not. The trick is to find out fast, and course-correct (thus the inevitable rash of cancellations, to be followed by another round of re-launches and new #1s, not to mention the fan optimism that they get it right this time  ). 52 is another case of big promise but flawed delivery. While an excellent series, I'm not sure it delivered exactly what it promised (an exploration of the new DCU), but it did bring a lot of excitement and some good stories--- so why cancel this money-maker? Let's change the name, bring in fan favorite Paul Dini (can't fault that decision; Dini can do no wrong lately), and continue to cash on--- OH! And it leads into next year's big cash cow (I mean "Event"  ). DC is fighting for their fans, trying to be as inclusive as possible with their strategy. If a concept like Terra doesn't work (with all due respect to her admittedly small base of loyal fans), revamp it until it appeals to a wider (money-spending) audience. Of course, at that point if the creative decisions are not solid (Nightwing, anyone?), then you've done way more harm than good. But they are trying. And they are responsive. Marv was brought in to fix Nightwing, Gail Simone just brought back Ice (a decision no doubt made after a strenuous fan effort), and they've given us Jeff Smith's Monster Society of Evil mini to mitigate that abomination that is Trials of Shazam. Certain bold creative decisions they stand behind, and I give them credit for it; there is a lot of promise in Jaime Reyes, Jason Rusch and Ryan Choi, and they deserve the long-term support that, say, Kyle Rayner got. All things being equal, I think DC is just letting money influence creative decisions far too much, but I'm not sure that can be avoided, given the necessities of the market and the competition. But at the same time, there is more than a modicum of creative integrity and adventurousness (though off-set by some bad editorial decisions and even worse writing--- sometimes from good writers). That being said, John, I think there is much in DC's catalog right now worth reading. My suggestions (of the titles I read regularly) are below: Highly Reccomended Titles (everyone should be reading these): Justice Society of America Justice League of America Justice Brave and the Bold Green Lantern Birds of Prey 52/Countdown Detective Comics The All-New Atom Manhunter Consistently Entertaining (good enough to spend money on): JSA Classified Superman Action Comics Wonder Woman Blue Beetle Checkmate Shadowpact Jonah Hex Nightwing Teen Titans The Spirit Firestorm The Jury's Still Out ( grudgingly purchased titles[/u][/i]): Aquaman Flash Supergirl Hawkgirl Superman Confidential Titles I've Dropped: Green Arrow Outsiders Trials of Shazam Batman Catwoman Legion of Super-Heroes Superman/Batman JLA Classified Batman Confidential There's my two cents, for what it's worth. Hope it's of use to you, John! D. |
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Post by darkknight814 on Apr 22, 2007 9:24:56 GMT -5
hey D,
I gotta applaud you on your post, and I agree with your assessment a lot.
I recently got back into comics, because for me was a way for me to revisit my youth..
The titles for me that I buy consistently are:
Catwoman
Batman Confidential
Superman Confidential
Wonder Woman
JSA
JLA
Manhunter (but they are going to be doing a new volume supposedly this summer)
Supergirl
Brave and the Bold.
Aquaman.
--
I am going to drop Aquaman and Manhunter has been dropped for me already...
But I don't find that I mind the JSA/JLA crossover.... in fact I like the attempt to merge generations.
I was going to drop Wonder Woman because of the Heinberg delays, but I have liked what Picoult has done and to learn that Gail Simone is going to be doing the book now, I am excited about that. I will keep this title.
52 is hard to keep up with b/c of a weekly schedule, but I do like the minor characters being moved to the front... I don't really like the death of The Question at all.
I guess that really is a bit of a rant myself... but I can see why people are frustrated. Maybe streamlining the titles is an answer... quality instead of quantity?
just my peace,
Jay.
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Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 9:33:31 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Great insight here! And the recommending reading lists will be considered. I do need to show some restraint because I use to buy everything just to have it. Now I plan to buy because its worth reading.
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Post by arcalian on Apr 22, 2007 12:09:30 GMT -5
Naturally I think Terra worked just fine when given a chance to do so, something she hadn't been given since 1995. I think I've proved that with Titans: The Resistance, and will do so in DC2 continuity soon, as well. Almost any character can "work", if the powers that be bother to try to make them work.
I will acknowledge that sales helps determine what happens. But really, hasn't Marvel been pwning DC in the sales department for years and years? The next reboot won't fix that; telling entertaining stories and establishing a heroic status quo that people like, will. Of course, the suits have to see past their noses long enough to realize that, as Idlewilder pointed out.
Some of the bad things that have happened in DC are "money" decisions, yes. Others, like the decision to put Teen Titans Go on the chopping block despite the fact that it's selling well, are down to "the editors felt like it".
And that, under Didio especially but also to a lesser degree before he came, is a big part of the problem right there.
Sales will always play a role in comics, this I know. When they are the only determinant factor, that's bad; when you add in destructive, negative, change-for-it's-own-sake Editorial whims, it becomes worse.
For me personally, DC stands for Done Comics. As in, I'm done buying them. DC2 is my home now.
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Post by Alex on Apr 22, 2007 12:45:50 GMT -5
I just want to coment about this whole ethnic agenda thing of Didio's, I'm so sick of people spouting this and then using the whole I'm not racist or I don't mean to be racist in saying this kind of justification. Would these stories be fixed if these characters were still their white predecessors? If your answer is no, then your problem is with the writing, not the fact that a minority character has replaced a caucasian one. Good writing and characterization will make a factor like race irrelevant.
But with that said, i'm not a fan of killing of a character just to make room for a minority replacement.I'm a big Firestorm fan, both Ronnie and Jason, and I like Jason better than Ronnie, but with that said, I kinda thought Ronnie's death in Identity Crisis was kinda out of the blue and to me seemed like they did it just for the sake of doing so. I dont know if the motivation was to kill him to make way for his minority successor (same with Blue Beetle), but if they are going to replace someone, i'd rather see them replaced with a minority rather than a caucasian and applaud Didio for trying to do something good for a change. There needs to be a greater minority representation in comics unless they are going to exisit in the same universe as the TV show Friends did.
Most people that use these arguements are people who want the previous character to be brought back (i see it alot with Firestorm) and if that's the case, then i dont understand the whole idea bringing up an ethnic agenda unless you have a problem with the fact that a minority has replaced a caucasian character, which if you do have a problem with it is fine your allowed have a your opinion.
Sorry for the tirade. This wasn't meant as anything personal to any of you. I'm new here and it was brought up and I just wanted to comment on the issue as a whole as i've seen it from DC's and other message boards around the net.
Some first post...
Alex
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Mischief
Staff
I Sit Upon My Throne As The Guardian & The Keeper Of The Lightning.
Posts: 1,517
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Post by Mischief on Apr 22, 2007 12:53:59 GMT -5
I will forever enjoy when creators take chances with these chances. I think Quesada said it best for Marvel, what would Stan Lee do??? But if DC is Done Comics, then I can save a shit load of money. And buy more Marvel. Mischief |
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Post by starlord on Apr 22, 2007 14:47:13 GMT -5
Well, I'm going to take a moment and throw my own two cents in here. Remembering, of course, that opinions and personal preferences are all subjective, and there really is no right or wrong in an opinion. Especially when it comes to an art form. I still love DC, even with the fumbles that they have made. I respect all the editors for trying new things and trying to keep things interesting. Yeah, they've dropped the ball a lot, but other then my trades (mostly Vertigo and Wildstorm), I still hold DC in a much higher regard then I do Marvel. Of course I've also been reading comics for over thirty years, so for me it just seems like business as usual in both company's. I also have loyalty issues. I'm fiercely loyal to something that I commit too (hi Charlie!  ), and I've been loyal to DC for many years. Even though I started as a Marvel Zombie. Since I also have no talent when it comes to drawing or coloring, and (imho) very little talent in real comic book writing, I try not to say to many negative things about the writing or art that I don't care for. Those lucky bastards are good enough to get paid for it. All that being said, I do respect all the Editors for what they do. Good decisions (Atom, Blue Beetle, and JSA), and bad (Hawkgirl, Supergirl, and WW III). They're trying, and that's all anyone in their positions can do. Now my list of the best to worst that DC has to offer. Birds of Prey JSA Brave and the Bold JLA Checkmate Green Lantern Detective Comics All new Atom Manhunter 52 Firestorm Teen Titans are always the tops to me Blue Beetle Shadowpact Catwoman (the only thing that Dave disliked that surprised me) Robin Green Lantern Corps. Green Arrow Action Comics Superman Flash (since this last arc) Nightwing (since Marv came back) Wonder Woman (actually this one is iffy but I'm holding on for Gail) are all good and worth looking into Hawkgirl Aquaman Supergirl LoSH Batman have done nothing but disappoint me. But I still buy them. Welcome to Tranquility is probably my favorite new book and worth getting the back issue's for. But the best book on the market right now... Fables... hands down. With The Walking Dead being a close second. but both I only buy in trades. so that's my opinion on all of it. |
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Post by darkknight814 on Apr 22, 2007 19:22:00 GMT -5
Jay, I agree with you DC2 is a good place.. but DC isn't done.. I know it seems slow right now, but I have high hopes for some of the titles that Davd and Starlord named off... I do believe that comic storylines fluctuate in general... you're gonna get the good with the bad.. it's the bad you have to wade though.. I am not going to stop buying them.. I just have to make sure my voice is heard to the writers .. but being here allows me to tell my version of things.. which hopefully you guys will see soon. Take care, Jay. |
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Post by arcalian on Apr 22, 2007 20:38:41 GMT -5
Jay,
Call me back when Didio steps down in a few years and we'll talk about it. I'll be putting my money elsewhere until then, at least.
Jay
(This is only the second time I can remember conversing with someone with the same first name as me, heh.)
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Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 20:47:40 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for providing thoughtful and honest feedback on this. I am working with both of you guys and confuse way too easily! |
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Post by arcalian on Apr 22, 2007 20:57:07 GMT -5
Maybe you should identify us by which books we work on? Or which characters were fans of?
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Post by darkknight814 on Apr 22, 2007 21:09:39 GMT -5
Well I am the WW writer. But you can call me Z... it's a long held netname for me. But hey I answer to HEY YOU as well. *lol* *considers smiting you for heresy* But I won't I am a nice guy. |
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Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 21:17:16 GMT -5
Jay Z writer on Wonder Woman, check. Jay A writer on Suicide Squad, Titans Res, Batman, and Teen Titans, check. So what the hell am I writer of these days? |
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Post by arcalian on Apr 22, 2007 21:17:51 GMT -5
And I'm the incoming Suicide Squad writer. Amongst other things.
(What heresy did I commit?)
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Post by arcalian on Apr 22, 2007 21:18:55 GMT -5
Only two issues of Batman. Not regular writer there.
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Post by darkknight814 on Apr 22, 2007 22:25:11 GMT -5
nothing just teasing.
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Post by Lantern Lad on Apr 22, 2007 23:42:56 GMT -5
So what the hell am I writer of these days? Green Lantern, my friend... Books I pick up and find consistantly entertaining:GL GLC LoSH GA JLoA JSoA Robin Detective Comics Action Superman All Star Superman 52 BoP Blue Beetle Firestorm Wonder Woman
Comics I still read for some reason:Supergirl Nightwing (though Marv is on it & it's better, it's still not what I'd call good) Outsiders Catwoman (quickly turning into a giant yawn) The Flash (waiting for the promise of something great) Comics I dropped because I couldn't take the bull $h!t anymore:Hawkgirl (ending soon... another Hawkman reboot?) JLA Classified Aquaman (Sean McManus added to the roster was the final straw) Book I can't wait to get my hands on:Dr. Fate All-in-all, I read too damn many comics. That doesn't even count the 2 Dark Horse titles I read (Buffy & Star Wars Legacy) and 2 Marvel Titles (Astonishing X-Men and USM) Ugh... |
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Post by brigante133 on Apr 23, 2007 1:36:27 GMT -5
Well, I'm going to be the first to welcome Alex to the board since all of you are incredibly rude. Now that I've done that. here are my two cents. Well it's more like three cents after inflation but I assure you it'll feel like two cents... I think... who cares. DC isn't doomed. DC is far from doomed in comparison to companies like Image or Dark Horse who are still chugging along dispite the fact that their characters are by and large not big names. I think DC is making a few mistakes because the audience they are trying to captivate really isn't reading comics. When they cash in on nostalgia they really do cash in. Look at Jeff Smith's Captain Marvel and Alex Ross's Justice and even All Star Superman. All of those rely on older readers buying them so that they can feel like they are reading comics from when they were younger but dc keeps pushing new violent "edgy" comics. I think that's smart honestly. I mean how long can they placate older readers who read comics when they were younger before that audience quite literally dies out? By bringing in minority characters and violence and all those things that werent around when the golden, silver, and whatever the hell age readers who want to read old school feeling titles, DC hasn't really made some fatal error in my mind, it's just trying to bring in new audiences. Now does this excuse them for making bad decisions? No, I guess it doesn't but that doesn't mean they are doomed. I mean some stories really do suck. I thought jla has been mind numbingly boring (something that is hurt even more by the ridiculous covers) but clearly some of you like it the same way I like All-Star Batman and Robin despite the fact that I know to others it's a complete laughing stock. The point is, I think DC is really trying to open itself up to as much people as possible. They just announced or released titles aimed at teenage girls right? They were using vertigo to appeal to horror movie fans (i'm not sure if that's still going). And while that doesn't appeal to everyone, I think they are trying to find out what is working for THIS generation of comic book readers before it's too late. I for one loved Infinite Crisis as did some of my friends my age so apparently it wasn't too collosal a mistake, just not your taste. anyhow, I think I am talking in circles, and poorly at that so I'm going to stop... NOW. |
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Post by HoM on Apr 23, 2007 8:44:49 GMT -5
Ramon... Vertigo IS still going |
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Post by brigante133 on Apr 23, 2007 10:44:51 GMT -5
i know that, i meant the texas chainsaw massacre, nightmare on elm street, and friday the 13th books.
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Dr Dread
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The Odious-1
Posts: 1,547
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Post by Dr Dread on Apr 23, 2007 13:03:21 GMT -5
A few months back, I was talking to the guys who run the comic book shop I visit. They typically sell out of DCs more than Marvel. Although Marvel does sell about 10% better than DC, certain DC titles (like 52) sell better than expected.
Personally, since Civil War ended, I no longer pick up any Marvel publications. It's all DC now.
The DC titles I'm really enjoy right now are:
SHAZAM: THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL
THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD
ALL-STAR SUPERMAN
and 52
The ones I'm so-so on are:
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
SHADOWPACT (I actually dropped it, and went back to it)
TRIALS OF SHAZAM (This one is on the razor's edge of being dropped)
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Post by Lantern Lad on Apr 23, 2007 16:52:21 GMT -5
TRIALS OF SHAZAM (This one is on the razor's edge of being dropped) I've heard from everyone that this title is absolutely awful (meant to sound like Simon Cowell) I looked at the interiors of one issue (may have been #1) and placed it right back down on the rack. |
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Dr Dread
Staff
The Odious-1
Posts: 1,547
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Post by Dr Dread on Apr 24, 2007 9:23:01 GMT -5
I've heard from everyone that this title is absolutely awful (meant to sound like Simon Cowell) Yeah, it is bad, and the art is touch and go. However, I can't fault them for taking a chance and trying something different. If this series can pull out of the nose dive, it could become something great. If it doesn't, and crashes, I think there's one big reset button that will be pushed. SHAZAM: THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL is redeeming DC for Trials. Some have called it All-Star Captain Marvel, and I agree. |
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Post by Alex on Apr 24, 2007 17:35:21 GMT -5
Well, I'm going to be the first to welcome Alex to the board since all of you are incredibly rude. Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here. -Alex |
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(For example…. how did the Trinity suddenly get along at the end of IC? Why does Batman suddenly forgive WW? Why does Superman?…. or does her?? Wasn’t IC supposed to define the pillars of the DCU?…. and if so…. why didn’t it?)
. Remember, this status quo shake-up is still in pursuit of piguing the interest of new readers, and not caused by any real creative impulse. With so many radical, drastic changes flying around, the law of averages will tell you that some will work, but most will not. The trick is to find out fast, and course-correct (thus the inevitable rash of cancellations, to be followed by another round of re-launches and new #1s, not to mention the fan optimism that they get it right this time 
).
).
), and I've been loyal to DC for many years. Even though I started as a Marvel Zombie. 
