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Post by Crow on Oct 1, 2006 16:23:18 GMT -5
Normally I don't like to ask these kind of questions if I'm on a DCu forum. But for the sake of curiousity, from those of you following, what is your take on the Marvel comics, emphasis on Civil War?
I've followed them loosely, but I've actually lost interest in a lot of books. I was a mainstay at the X-men area but I fell off, though I see in Wizard that most of them are doing pretty well as far as story goes.
Civil War I follow a little (by follow I mean I skim the pages at the comic shop) and it seems okay so far.
One thing I've noticed: Death. It's not a new topic but I see it more and more. Through Infinite Crisis and the mini-series related, a little in 52, and through the Civil War Issues and the related tie-ins, there has been deaths, or losts, or returns, and it's a bit annoying to me. Everytime I look around someone ahs died, come back, and gone missing.
SPOILERS
I saw Thor was supposed to be returning, and he did (not a big fan but I was curious to his return) and I see one of his first acts in the latest Civil War was to kill Goliath (I can't remember his real name, but I think it was Bill something). And then we find he's really a clone that Tony had planned for many years ago.
Or in 52, Trench (can anyone tell me who he is?) is liquified when trying to be the new Dr. Fate while Trajectory from Luthor's team died last issue.
SPOILERS END
So anyway, I was interested in anyone's opinion on all of this. I appreciate the realism but I feel all the deaths are making even imaginery stories feel more artificial, because we all know that deaths and returns draw attention and money, and writers like Bendis capitalize on that.
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Post by Admin on Oct 1, 2006 17:43:30 GMT -5
I don't read much Marvel (just Astonishing X-Men--- though the Planet Hulk storyline looks pretty cool, I hear New Avengers is quite good, and I would pick up a Thor title if/when they do one again).
I can't really say I'm all that upset about the state of modern comics. Everything is tailored to an audience. And we can all bemoan the constant death and destruction, but we still pay money to see it. It's when we don't any more that the industry will change.
But it does suggest the questions:
* What was the best/smartest "rebirth" or comeback of recent years?
* What was the most useless or gratuitous death?
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Post by Admin on Oct 1, 2006 17:45:30 GMT -5
Hal Jordan. Hands down.
Kal-L in Infinite Crisis.
Ironic in that both of those stories were engineered by the same person...
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Post by Crow on Oct 1, 2006 23:15:59 GMT -5
I'd have to disagree to a certain point. While I do think it was rather clever how Johns wiped out the Parallax Hal (so to speak) I think him getting rid of Kal-L was needed. I like a semi-realistic, semi-fantasy comic world (I think that's how I describe today's comics, being grounded in reality a lot but keeping the sci-fi appeal), and I had gotten used to one Superman, at least in this world.
But having Kal-L stay would have been a bit of trouble, because then you have to have two supermen who are revered by all and you may confused new readers with a second, odler Superman who flies around. All we would have gotten in the long run is a Superman in the JLA and JSA, and I feel like that would realing be stealing what makes DC's superheroes do great on their own. I say that because everyone thinks that just adding Superman to something will make it good (he probably has, hands down, the most guest/cameo appearences/mentions in the comics medium).
And sending him away without death or conclusion would have been the same ending as the first Crisis. On your point on about the industry itself, I feel like it's a bit of a problem in some spots. I don't mind violence and death mind you: Ultimates 1 and 2, Sleeper, and the Authority are some of my faves in this category, but it's the mainstream stuff right now that keeps using these plot devices so much. I don't mean to be biased but I have to point a fingure at Bendis especially because everytime I read a storyarc relating to him, someone(s) gets killed, and 2 times out of 5 they will return in some random explanation 6 months down the line. It's waters down the use of death. If someone dies I'd like to see them die, or at least take a while to surprise me with their return. And at least return them in some kind of way that doesn't make me and other readers think that the story was thought up yesterday (the return of Psyloche had no explanations of a long time, Hawkeye convenient came back during House of M, and I'm sure I'm forgetting countless others who have returned for pretty much no reason. So much that the X-Men are joked upon for never staying dead long).
Anyway, that's my concern. I'm not really upset, like I'm going to burn somethnig down, but it concerns me for the well being of the medium. I'd like to think we can continue to show non-comic readers that comics can be literature as well, not just overused dialogue, petty plots, and "Holy batmobiles!"
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Post by Admin on Oct 2, 2006 9:44:34 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting Kal-L should have been left to wander around the DCU (though that would have been preferrable to how he went out), just that the way he was dispensed with was "useless and gratuitous".
It's a respect issue for me. Here he is, the first and greatest superhero of all time, the character that started a genre and a worldwide cultural icon --- beaten to death by a Johnny-come-lately punk kid?!?
Wolfman gave him a classy exit, worthy of a legend. Johns brought him back to serve a story, then killed him off in what appears to me a gratuitous manner.
I don't read comics for gritty realism (there's enough of that in the real world); comics should be pure escapism. Fun. Perhaps the current state of "sophistication" is responsible for the new respect comics enjoy in the mainstream--- and don't get me wrong, there is some excellent work being done out there!--- but when we sacrifice fun for 'gritty realism', then it might be time for Superman to hang up his cape permenently.
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Post by HoM on Oct 2, 2006 12:09:47 GMT -5
I think that Peter Parker was too easily made to unmask, and the Thor clone would be immediately known as a CLONE because he ALWAYS sides with Captain America, and something I always say (during my conversations with Doc) is that during the Kang War, when Thor thought Cap was dead, he was thinking of leaving this realm for good, so I think Steve could have sussed that out.
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Post by goldk on Oct 2, 2006 12:43:10 GMT -5
--- and don't get me wrong, there is some excellent work being done out there!--- but when we sacrifice fun for 'gritty realism', then it might be time for Superman to hang up his cape permenently. Wasn't that what IC was about? The "wholesome" characters coming back to "fix" the dark and gritty characters? Maybe I'm not looking right but I don't see where it has "fixed" anything. Don't forget we still have a Superby only he's locked away in a box. I recently read where it was supposed to be nightwing that died but they changed it at the last minute, so I think it was completly arbitrary who died as long as someone did to deliver that sales punch. Kal-l dying was a travesty. It wasn't even on earth. No one will know or remember his sacrifice. Instead of some punk pummeling him to death on some distant planet, he should have beaten Prime to within an inch of his life, stopping only to emphasize that he would; not become like them but instead respect the sanctity of all life! Kinda thing. Then Prime in one final burst of strength or something kills Kal-l, and says something stupid. That's when he transported away and they put him in a box to use as a plot device later and confuse future readers about why there is another superboy, or by that time, man, around. And since he was from the multiverse and was came about on Earth Prime becasue of the COIE, there's the possibility for several trades to AGAIN tell all those stories. I think comics get too caught up on continuity. Just tell me a good story. If a character dies and he's back the next issue as long as it's interesting and entertaining I don't care. My wife and I saw a commercial for X3 coming out on DVD and she said, "I thought she drowned in the second one." refering obviously to Jean Grey. My answer was, "It's a comic book."
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Sam
Staff
People will still know it's me if I change my username right...?
Posts: 377
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Post by Sam on Oct 2, 2006 13:20:36 GMT -5
I'm pro-registration but anti Tony Stark.
He's a dick. Him and that Richards guy...
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Post by HoM on Oct 2, 2006 13:25:06 GMT -5
I'm Anti-Registration and now, at last, I get to say that I'm Pro-Spider-Man.
Except Stark is going to lock down his Iron Spider suit, and Peter is going to have to run around naked.
I KNOW YOU MILLAR!
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Post by HoM on Oct 2, 2006 13:26:56 GMT -5
And...
The Ultimates 2 #12 is the greatest issue of Ultimates. Ever.
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Post by Crow on Oct 2, 2006 21:45:49 GMT -5
Great stuff said on Superman-Kal-L.
I think that, since DC seemed to not try to hide the fact that there was multiple dimensions (all the Crisis stuff) that they should have at least given Kal-L some kind of good-bye at the end. I think during Infinite Crisis they could have made him a shining beacon, maybe a surprise to the current DCU, even if he had to be misguided by Luthor's plans.
But it seems like all of the heroes from off Earth New (Kal L, Luthor, Prime) changed for the worst for this story. Prime was no longer chipper and innocent, he was jealous and arrogant in a way. Luthor wasn't the last hero of Earth 3, he was a ends-justify-the-means kind of anti-hero. Kal L was in denial over the real problems.
Wizard says that John's JSA will have Powergirl being the legacy left behind for Kal L, so I guess we can see what they do with her on those terms.
Civil War, I'm on the fence about registration (it does make sense, if they allow their identities to not go public) but Stark has really been an a-hole against all his friends.
Ultimates in general is one of the hottest books out! I love it. Millar is greatness with a pen and freedom to write what he wants.
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Post by chris on Oct 3, 2006 7:27:47 GMT -5
I think Kal-L would have been great to keep around. He could have been on the JSA. I dont see why it would be anymore confusing than Powergirl being around or the tons of characters who hav edied and came back. He could have doctored some papers and been Clark's long lost uncle or some such thing, and still been called Clark by saying he was named after his uncle. And the last son of Krypton th ing is a joke at this point anyways with Supergirl, Powergirl, and others who have come and gone. It would be so cool to have the older Supes in the JSA. There would be much for him to teach the younger heroes, he could do training stuff with the titans and they could have built a real family environment around him with everyone trying to be there for him with Lois gone.
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Post by Crow on Oct 3, 2006 8:39:38 GMT -5
I guess my problem though is that the DCU at large, comics universe and how it fits in teh real world, our world, is that we based the entirety of DCU on the Superman logo. Don't ge tme wrong, I believe Superman is a worldwide icon, he is. To deny it would be pointless. But when I talk to people who don't even read comics, every other character tends to be devalued in the presence of Superman. There's nothing wrong with respect or favoring Superman, but me being a blooming writer, who loves a lot of the DC characters (1st tier, 2nd tier, and yes, even some of the z list) it's just annoying when all there is is Superman all over the place and everyone centers things on him.
Like I think I said above, h's DCU's icon. He's been a guest in so many comics that he may not usually be affliated with. Some writers coming into DC love to throw Superman into a story just to spike up their sales. Ideally I think this can help boost something, and be a positive thing, but in other ways it just makes people take less time to fidn something cool for their character(s).
Of course, I'm not saying this all of DCU and its writers. But I really feel that having two Supermen around would be, unintentionally, the Supermen stealing the spotlight.
It's what happened with Supergirl. I loved the big Superman family, but since I'm against useless death and rebirth cycles in comics, I didn't like when they brought Kara back in out of nowhere. Then DC did what they and Marvel usually do: to hype up a character they make them upstage/beat Superman (or Batman, or in Marvel they do it with Wolverine a lot). So Supergirl was all of a sudden so much more powerful than Supes (though this was later revealed to eb false since Kal lowers his strength for safety reasons). They had Supergirl beating the Titans and the JLA or however it happened. And to prove my point, I thought Legion of Super Heroes was doing good on its own stories, but now it's Sueprgirl and the LoSH and the story has been half centered on her, but not really going anywhere else.
Maybe I'm digressing, I don't know, but my point is that I think he was a great hero and should have been treated better and closer to his original nature. Maybe he could have stayed for a bit. I think Ijust feel against the idea of too many S's flying around because of the way writers use them in the DCU. I think if they used them properly and stopped making them Deus Ex Machinas for every story with a few problems, I'd be less inclined to argue against them.
You guys understand me or am I ranting too much?
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Post by HoM on Oct 3, 2006 12:18:25 GMT -5
You make some good points, Crow! Really well thought out argument, but yeah, they would have turned into the kind of characters who are like "Oh, no, Superman 1 can't stop this villain, bring in Superman 2!" And I think we could have just had Kal L sacrafice himself somehow, maybe having the choice to stop Superboy Prime and save like... The sun or something, and spare the kid, and do his duty. As a hero, you know? And Chris, if all the Super-Family lived, it would have been quite amazing if you think about it. Superman (Kal-L) in the JSA Superman (Kal-El) in the JLA Power Girl in the Outsiders Supergirl in the Teen Titans. But with all these Kryptonians, we'd be faced with the same problem that lead to the Crisis on Infinite Earths in the first place. Superman is no longer unique... But you give some good points!
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Post by Crow on Oct 3, 2006 15:38:05 GMT -5
And if we really had all of the Superman family, we'd have team mascots with Krypto, Streaky, and the horse and whoever else was part of the superman farm lol. By the way, how did Krypto get re-introduced to DC?
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Post by HoM on Oct 3, 2006 15:50:03 GMT -5
I think it was through the Phantom Zone, in the Return to Krypton story arc...
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Post by starlord on Oct 3, 2006 16:36:06 GMT -5
Well the original question is about Marvel's Civil War and I have been buying it. I haven't found it really that great, but it is much better then House of M. Miller is writing Tony all wrong, in my opinion. This man has never trusted the government and was actually fired by them at one point.
It wasn't until this last issue, though, that I started to wonder what exactly Mark was doing with this story. It may just be the liberal side of me, but I can't help but notice a huge amount of similarities between what Marvel's Government is doing, and some of the dangers that face this country with our own government. Of course, what do I know.
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Post by Crow on Oct 3, 2006 23:37:16 GMT -5
Maybe that's where the Marvel writers got their inspiration. Mark is a very political and real world writer when he wants to be...
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Post by chris on Oct 23, 2006 19:04:22 GMT -5
Yeah, imagine my dismay when I opened the paper this morning and saw that Newt Gingrich was supporting the mutant registry.
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