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Post by Romans Empire on Mar 6, 2008 0:11:42 GMT -5
Please let us know what you think and don't forget to rate the issue!
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Post by HoM on Mar 7, 2008 8:37:09 GMT -5
A WAR?
Who would have thought it.
Enjoyed the flashbacks to the scripture, but as always, I feel there's something missing in this book. Over the past few months I've just felt there's an element that isn't here that should be. It doesn't stop the book being well-written, but when I think about it, it detracts from the experience. I can't put my finger on it though, so it's bugging me more so than I think it should. Heh.
I'm curious how Talia Head's appearances in Batman #11+ are going to be included in this! Should be interesting...
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 7, 2008 15:50:06 GMT -5
A WAR? Who would have thought it. Enjoyed the flashbacks to the scripture, but as always, I feel there's something missing in this book. Over the past few months I've just felt there's an element that isn't here that should be. It doesn't stop the book being well-written, but when I think about it, it detracts from the experience. I can't put my finger on it though, so it's bugging me more so than I think it should. Heh. I'm curious how Talia Head's appearances in Batman #11+ are going to be included in this! Should be interesting... Well Charlie, I am sorry you think something is missing, but without something more specific from you, I don't know what else to say. As for Talia...well you were pretty sly when you wrote her in your two part a ways back. You never even refereed to her by her first name. Needless to say however, her poking around Gotham and Mr. Zasaz will likely appear to the first stage in what is come. |
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Post by starlord on Mar 8, 2008 2:49:23 GMT -5
Outstanding issue, and the villain is revealed! There was some really tight stuff here. The Alfred and Tim stuff was my favorite. The confrontation with Ra's was intense and I can't wait to see what happens next.
Perhaps in two weeks in Detective Comics in two weeks.
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Post by HoM on Mar 8, 2008 6:11:30 GMT -5
Also Grant, the fact that she's one of the biggest financial supporters for Arkham Asylu6m will play a role. Or whatever she was going to do with her partner ship with Wayne Enterprises? And I think it was in Batman #16 (the ninja Santa issue?) when we discovered her link to Ra's and her first name  |
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 8, 2008 15:21:00 GMT -5
Also Grant, the fact that she's one of the biggest financial supporters for Arkham Asylu6m will play a role. Or whatever she was going to do with her partner ship with Wayne Enterprises? And I think it was in Batman #16 (the ninja Santa issue?) when we discovered her link to Ra's and her first name Thanks B. You'll just have to wait and see what role, if any Talia plays. We're not tipping our hand here. |
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Post by zirron on Mar 8, 2008 16:40:42 GMT -5
Grant,
I have pretty much read the books w/o commenting much, but I wanted to make some comments on this one, because I am a fan of Ra's. I thought the way you wrote it was definitely intriguing. I know that you've got the way Tim Drake should be written down... because he seems very young and very unaware of the true dangers that "B" faces.
I am not sure what Charlie is talking about.. but I think you're books are definitely very strong. I can't wait to see what you have in store for the next part.. I do know you mention Savage.. which of course leads me to think that he'll be in the arc somewhere..
Good start.. and good story.. ***** from me.
Ramon's art was good as gold. Good to see it.
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Post by lissilambe on Mar 8, 2008 17:42:40 GMT -5
Well, one of my all-time favorite Batman villains has made his appearance, and the big story kicks off and...
...I'm disappointed in it. A number of small things just nickel and dime this tale from five stars to only three. A number of small grammatical errors (for example, you complement someone's abilities if the abilities mesh, but you compliment someone's abilities if you think they're cool) creep in, and in enough quantity to take from the story. A goodly number of them are in the fragmented ancient text too, which means it's tough to tell if they're actually mistakes or supposed to be mistranslations, but either way, it made things a bit tough.
I'm also not a fan of Ra's being Xerxes. Just me. Just a subjective thing.
I was also disappointed to see Ra's addressing Bruce as Bruce, and especially as "Mr. Wayne". Always will Ra's call Batman "The Detective", which to me is a term of respect and acknowledgement of what Batman is about in his core. To see him calling Bruce by name was...jarring.
I do not like the Joker being a puppet. The Joker is as big a force of nature and terrifying threat as Ra's, in completely different ways. They are opposite ends of the threat spectrum Batman faces, and I just don't think Joker should EVER be a tool in someone else's arsenal. If Luthor keeps Joker out of his dealing because he considers Joker uncontrollable...then that should really be the final word on the matter.
Tim Drake was less the intelligent and eager new apprentice and much more an extroverted ADD sufferer in this issue. He reminded me of nothing more than that kid from the Incredibles, the one on the bicycle who is waiting for something cool. I think Tim was just a bit over the top.
The League counter-measures plan left me...on the verge of apalled. I mean, seriously, there was no need for this element at all. Batman does not run off to get his buddies to fight his battles for him. He remains within his family when it comes to Gotham especially, and there was no reason more than this insular behavior of his to explain why the League doesn't get involved. The way I've handled Batman in JL I thought really indicated this, since Batman rarely even makes personal appearances in the Hall. Batman has his little domain, the League has theirs, and rarely do they cross. This "anti-league" force rumors, especially in light of how the Society got handled in the recent Crisis, just seems weak and unnecessary.
Sorry to be so down on this issue. Once over this initial hurdle, I'm sure the writing (which is good overall, nice pacing and interesting takes on things) will help the story to pick right up and get me past the bumpy start. I hope so.
But yeah, I think I see what Charlie's saying when something's missing.
Take care
Don
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 8, 2008 21:33:39 GMT -5
Well, one of my all-time favorite Batman villains has made his appearance, and the big story kicks off and... ...I'm disappointed in it. A number of small things just nickel and dime this tale from five stars to only three. A number of small grammatical errors (for example, you complement someone's abilities if the abilities mesh, but you compliment someone's abilities if you think they're cool) creep in, and in enough quantity to take from the story. A goodly number of them are in the fragmented ancient text too, which means it's tough to tell if they're actually mistakes or supposed to be mistranslations, but either way, it made things a bit tough. I'm also not a fan of Ra's being Xerxes. Just me. Just a subjective thing. Sorry you didn't like it Don. These stories are a hobby, not a job. I do them quickly and mistakes and typos will creep in. Everyone here has typos in their stories. There are obviously some in this one, but glass houses and all that mate. Well you must not have liked Batman Begins I guess... The point we are making is that the relationship between Ra's and Bruce was far closer at one point that is written in the comic books. They know each other as well as two people can, and that former relationship puts them on a far more intimate level that merely respectful adversaries you see in the comics. "The detective" is a term of respect, and derision, used by Ra's in the comics. This Ra's is much closer to Bruce Wayne personally than that. When Ra's calls him "Mr. Wayne," rather than "Bruce" there is a reason for that which I think is pretty clear from the text of the story. This is not Denny O'Neil's Ra's Al Ghul, and if that is what you are looking for, I am afraid you just won't like this story. Well fortunately what is going on with the Joker in both Batman and Tec has nothing to do with what Luthor may or may not have done with the Joker in the past. You'll just have to stayed tuned to see why the Joker is doing what is doing. Again, you are entitled to your opinion and if you want to read a Batman story that walks in lock step with your own stories on other titles, I can only repeat what I said above and say you just won't like this story. Something huge is coming to Gotham City. And the fact of the matter is Batman is part of the league and as a superb tactician, he would call in the big guns when necessary. We needed to wrap up Vicki's story, for the short term at least, and bringing in Aquaman seemed a natural way to get her both away from the story and, plot wise, out of harm's way. Because the DC2 Ras is so familiar with Bruce Wayne, there isn't anywhere in Gotham she is safe. Given the scope of what's on the horizon, it makes prefect sense for Batman to consider using the league, and for Ra's to know that and prepare for it. Ra's is not Lex Luthor and his plans have really nothing to do with the recent Crisis at all. Setting up the virtual isolation of Gotham, on Batman's so-say, is actually part of what is coming. I appreciate your comments. But the story is going where the story is going. Whether you like it or not, is pretty much up to you. |
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Post by lissilambe on Mar 8, 2008 21:49:37 GMT -5
For the record, bringing Aquaman in to hide Vicki I liked, I liked that quite a bit. Thought it was an intelligent and twisty direction to take. I liked that quite a bit.
Don
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Post by Romans Empire on Mar 9, 2008 2:18:13 GMT -5
As editor on this title I take full responsibility for the errors whether they be grammatical or otherwise. Though I am able to catch some of the more obvious mistakes when the brain is faster then the hands typing it, other times my own inadequacies as a 'true editor' are exposed when I miss things that are obvious to someone such as yourself Don.
I apologize if those mistakes took away your ability to fully enjoy the story.
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 9, 2008 2:41:41 GMT -5
For the record, bringing Aquaman in to hide Vicki I liked, I liked that quite a bit. Thought it was an intelligent and twisty direction to take. I liked that quite a bit. Don Thanks. When writing that scene, I had to also think it through from Aquaman's point of view. Here is the most aloof, independent member of the league asking for what amounts to a very strange favor. Hide Vicki in a city under the ocean. Arthur is not the type to just go: "Oh, ok Batman, sure thing." They aren't Butch and Sundance. Arthur is going to ask why. So Batman tells him Vicki has to be hidden because a villain who is just as capable as Batman is up to something very bad in Gotham. Again, Arthur isn't going to say "Oh ok. Jolly good." He is going to try and help. And if the threat is as serious as Batman says, Arthur will naturally suggest bringing in the big guns. Now, story wise, it makes no sense for Batman just to say "No, Gotham is mine town!". That is sorta lame really, from my view anyway. Batman would need a better reason to keep the JLA away. So in a battle with Ra's Al Ghul, why would Batman not opt to have the league's help? Ego isn't a good enough answer. So the answer is that Ra's has already considered possible JLA involvement and planned for it. So it isn't just a matter of Batman being a loner or resenting the methods of other heroes. There is a real serious reason to keep the likes of Superman out of the equation, effectively isolating Gotham from any other heroes Batman might call in for help....and how Batman grapples with that will play out both here in Batman and over Tec...which I encourage you all to read if you have not already. |
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 9, 2008 2:45:18 GMT -5
As editor on this title I take full responsibility for the errors whether they be grammatical or otherwise. Though I am able to catch some of the more obvious mistakes when the brain is faster then the hands typing it, other times my own inadequacies as a 'true editor' are exposed when I miss things that are obvious to someone such as yourself Don. I apologize if those mistakes took away your ability to fully enjoy the story. Typos are distracting, no question. And obviously if there are there, I wrote them in before you got the issue John. So I have my share of blame there. But again, this isn't a job and fit it in when we can, an I am grateful for your work on every story I have done for DC2, including Batman. |
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Post by lissilambe on Mar 9, 2008 2:49:55 GMT -5
I respectively disagree with your assessment that Batman would naturally turn to the League for help, or that he'd allow Arthur to press him into admitting such a need for the League's help. I think it's a non-issue. In the comics, heroes have territories, and it's not unusual for heroes to deal with their villains their ways. I'd have been fine with "Call in the League" "No, Arthur. This is my fight. It's personal, and it has to be handled my way." That's very typical Batman, it's classic kind of super-hero bravado, and honestly, Arthur would be chucking HUGE pieces of coral at glass houses if he complained about the same.
And to be honest, Black Adam and a vague grouping of other villains is just not sufficient to keep the League out of this. If anything, that would jack up their interest in getting involved, if Ra's is dealing in such things. They'd think "Damn...it's Luthor's Society all over again. Best to shut that down quick!" It takes it out of Batman's bailiwick.
]And why doesn't Ra's just use Black Adam and these beings of his to tear up Batman then? He's ruthless, he's monomaniacal, bloodthirsty.
No, Batman saying "This is my fight and I have to handle it my way" with no such other explanations would have worked fine for me. Much better for me, actually.
Yes, you're story. yes, you feel your explanation works. I understand that. But I'm explaining to you why it so badly let me down when I read it.
Take care
Don
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 9, 2008 3:21:35 GMT -5
As a writer, who is considering the character as more fleshed out than old school comic book approaches to them, "My city!" isn't enough. Things need reasons in a story, particularly with the characters in this story and bravdo doesn't have depth for any of the characters involved.
quote]
And to be honest, Black Adam and a vague grouping of other villains is just not sufficient to keep the League out of this. If anything, that would jack up their interest in getting involved, if Ra's is dealing in such things. They'd think "Damn...it's Luthor's Society all over again. Best to shut that down quick!" It takes it out of Batman's bailiwick.[/quote]
Not necessarily and the reason why that is so is explained to Arthur. And its not Luthor's Society all over again. Its unrelated, completely, with anything from the Society stories.
Why didn't the Soviet Union just nuke the United States? Or vica versa? Back in the day it was called Mutually Assured Destruction. Batman has a button, and so does Ra's. The only reason either one of them would push it would be simply to wipe out the other...and of course that would come at a huge price.
The other reason is that Ra's isn't just a scene chewing, blood thristy villain. In fact, Ra's is not blood thirsty at all. Killing is a means to an end...one he employs often but not something he relishes or particularly enjoys. Blood thirsty implies a need or enjoyment for killing. Someone who is blood thirsty kills for the sake of killing. That is not Ra's.
He does not want to see Batman destroyed for several reasons - two of which were shown in the story itself, and the main reason why Ra's meets with Bruce Wayne. As he says to Bruce, if he is forced to destroy Batman, he will do so with regret.
That's fine and dandy. But is not how I write.
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Post by zirron on Mar 9, 2008 7:32:29 GMT -5
John and Grant
Knowing you work long hours and responsibilities outside this realm... Typos creep in... I see typos in professional magazines.. I like y'alls collaboration.
Just shows us that human beings do make mistakes. (Lord knows I make them everyday.)
I don't believe that should be a primary reason not to like a story...
Just my 2¢s
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RocketeerZ
Staff 
Don't look at me, it was broken when I got here.
Posts: 379
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Post by RocketeerZ on Mar 11, 2008 18:43:28 GMT -5
I've been meaning to read this for a while... and finally got to it.
The characters here have a different feel and voice than what I've become accustomed to in Detective, but seeing that a different writer is at the reigns I expected that.
I did think Tim was written a little too "excited child" like, but I am comparing that to his appearacnes in 'Tec so it's hard to say which voice is more in line with the DC2 version.
I enjoyed the conversation between Ra's and Bruce. I took from the way that Ra's called him Bruce and son (and then a cold "Mr. Wayne" at the end when he knew he wasn't getting what he wanted) that the relationship[ here is different than the one in the DC proper. That gives a very interesting and intruging twist to this entire thing.
I did have a little bit of a problem with Batman's explanation of why the JL should stay away... the situation as described seemed to me that Ra's "anti-League" would be a reason that the JL WOULD be needed... what if Ra's brought them in to Gotham and the JL was not ready?
I'm very curious to see what the Joker has planned... him stopping Freeze from killing Batman means he has something else in mind. Something nasty I'm guessing. I'm very interested to see what that is.
The story was well witten and I'm interested enough to come back for more.
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 11, 2008 23:44:10 GMT -5
I've been meaning to read this for a while... and finally got to it. The characters here have a different feel and voice than what I've become accustomed to in Detective, but seeing that a different writer is at the reigns I expected that. I did think Tim was written a little too "excited child" like, but I am comparing that to his appearacnes in 'Tec so it's hard to say which voice is more in line with the DC2 version. Yeah, I went a bit over the top with Tim, LOL. Still, he's a young kid who, despite his recent losses, is going to be beyond excited to be part of Batman's world. It is indeed. We'll see more next issue of exactly what their relationship was once like in the past. It is certainly not the same as it is in the comics! Think of it like the cold war nuclear stand-off between the US and the USSR. Both Batman and Ra's have a "nuclear button" they can push. Should one push it, the other will push his. Neither has any guarantee they will win once that happens. But what they can be sure of is that it will basically result the destruction of Gotham City, and perhaps beyond. It's an effective stale mate. Could Ra's calling his anti-league? Yes. But that means the end of the agenda in favor of an all out battle with the Justice League...with no guarantee of victory. From Ra's point of view, having some kind of counter team to the JLA is really a deterrent directed at Batman, designed to keep him isolated in Gotham. Oh well, I can answer that. You see the Joker is....wait a sec...what? .....oh ok....*ahem* Sorry, Brian - DC2s intrepid Detective Comics writer, says I cannot say anything. Something about spoilers and all...I would tell you, but rules are rules. Thanks very much! |
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Post by arcalian on Mar 13, 2008 21:47:55 GMT -5
I'm amazed no one commented on the parallels between Bats-Ra's and Sherlock-Moriarty here. But then, I recognized the source material, blow by blow and frame by frame.
And good to see Tim, of course, and the Jason refernce and Firefly battle were clever.
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Post by capeandcowl on Mar 13, 2008 21:55:17 GMT -5
I'm amazed no one commented on the parallels between Bats-Ra's and Sherlock-Moriarty here. But then, I recognized the source material, blow by blow and frame by frame. THANK YOU! ;D Yes exactly. The scene between Ra's and Bruce Wayne should be familiar to anyone who has read a particular Holmes story. Thanks. We're just getting warmed up. |
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Post by walnutcookie on Mar 14, 2008 2:25:02 GMT -5
You ever seen an awesome cartoon from the 90s called Reboot? Tim Drake reminded me of the character Enzo in that series.
Interesting setup. I look forward to seeing what happens next.
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Post by David on Mar 14, 2008 17:01:04 GMT -5
I'm not a Batman fan (not really), but I am a Grant LaFleche fan, and after all the hubub over this issue, I felt I had to check it out. For my money, Grant writes the character as good or better than just about anybody else I've read (including me)--- despite the fact that we have fundamentally different opnions about him (especially around the Miller influences  ), and this issue was absolutely no exception. A five star effort! This is the kind of Batman tale I enjoy: action, humor, mystery, tension, suspense and an ending leaving me wanting more. Grant does this stuff so well, and seems to be perfectly at home with the tone and milleu of Gotham City and its denizens. I loved the scene with Ra's--- very intense! The MS. pages interspersed were a nice touch, and add the kind of historical depth and mystery seen recently only in Don's Danger Trail. Hopefully we'll see more? Personally, I am not bothered at all by the game of brinksmanship Bruce and Ra's are engaged in. I completely buy it in this context, and with these characters. I live such a prosaic life (professionally, that is) that I have no problem bringing a healthy dose of willing suspension of disbelief to comics fan fiction. But--- Boy!--- does Black Adam get around, or what?!? I mean, that bastich is in Shazam!, Justice Society of America and Batman (or at least hinted at) all in the same month! Who's his agent, because I hear Bizarro needs a job! I'm also loving the Moriarty parallels--- I wonder if Reichenbach Falls lies in the future  ! The editing on this issue was indeed a problem--- and it's not too late for a proofreader to go back and fix some of those typos (is it Xeres or Xerxes? At first I thought it was an entirely different Persian), but Ramon saves the star with a fantastic cover. Damn, that guy is good! Excited about the future of this title! |
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Post by Brandon on Apr 30, 2008 9:35:47 GMT -5
I'm amazed no one commented on the parallels between Bats-Ra's and Sherlock-Moriarty here. I've heard of Batman used with Holmes, but never the Ra's and Moriarty connection before. Makes perfect sense though! Thanks for that. |
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Post by Brandon on Apr 30, 2008 9:37:14 GMT -5
Oh, and good to see Arthur here. I thought he was written well. Very grounded.
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Post by capeandcowl on May 4, 2008 13:56:26 GMT -5
I'm amazed no one commented on the parallels between Bats-Ra's and Sherlock-Moriarty here. I've heard of Batman used with Holmes, but never the Ra's and Moriarty connection before. Makes perfect sense though! Thanks for that. Well if you read the Sherlock Holmes stories there is a powerful mirror of him in Batman. They both set out to fight crime, but are driven by unshakable obsessions. They are both less interested in protecting the innocent than they are punishing the guilty - but often decide for themselves how the guilty will be dealt with. Both are more than willing to break the law when it suits them, neither are particularly likely men. Never mind they are both genius detectives, have a faithful friend in Watson/Alfred, are masters of disguise and so on and so forth. Taken in that context, there is only one Batman villian who fits the role of Moriarty and that's Ra's. |
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SympleSymon
Staff
New writer for BATMAN - Returning Soon!
Posts: 97
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Post by SympleSymon on Dec 14, 2009 18:51:14 GMT -5
I loved the Holmes comparison too! Suits very well...an amazing issue! It seems there stories - and writers - just get better and better!
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), and this issue was absolutely no exception. A five star effort! 
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