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Post by Romans Empire on Jun 4, 2006 20:42:14 GMT -5
I love pie... and cake... and decadent brownies You are a good woman Ellen. Maybe a little misunderstood but someone who loves sweets has to be good right? |
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Post by dragonbat on Jun 4, 2006 21:33:38 GMT -5
Well, not necessarily. But thanks!
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Post by batarang on Jun 4, 2006 21:57:03 GMT -5
I believe in Dog.
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Post by chris on Jun 4, 2006 22:09:26 GMT -5
So , what is everyones favorite Batman suit? I like the Black and gray Jim Lee version myself.
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Post by HoM on Jun 5, 2006 2:01:39 GMT -5
Ellen, I do keep posting on your LiveJournal, but you never reply on mine!  But I'll exalt you because I've got my maths exam this afternoon and I'm hoping karma will balance it all out for me... giantevilhead... Do you actively practice a religion? I'm intrigued by your beliefs, but they don't sound as familiar to me as I believe they should... John... Metallica's on Saturday... *ROCK!* |
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Post by chris on Jun 5, 2006 4:54:51 GMT -5
Second, the above statement has way too many counter-points that I wouldn't know where to begin. I will only say this. Darkness does not exist. It isn't a real thing. Darkness is the absence of light. So why didn't God make it so it was light all the time? Not having enough light does not get you sent to a pit of eternal fire. There's nothing wrong with the idea of God but there is a problem with the idea of certain Gods, especially vengeful hateful ones that will send people to hell for not following arbitrary rules. There's also a definite problem with certain religions that have more faith in God than humans, like those fundamentalist ones that think people will go murdering and raping if there wasn't an arbitrary set of morals set down by an omnipotent being. I feel really bad for you. Saying we should just not be capable of evil is a total cop out to personal responsibility. Let's just say we should ot be capable of being fat so that we can eat eighty-five cheeseburgers for lunch or better yet blame McDonalds for our overeating cause they put it there right? I have been in church off and on my whole life and I know nothing of this vengeful hateful God you speak of. I will pray for you. |
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Post by dragonbat on Jun 5, 2006 8:02:33 GMT -5
Charlie, I've got you "friended" on my LJ. If I don't always reply, it could just be that I don't have an answer for you. As far as reading your LJ fics... I do skim them. And I keep meaning to read them closely enough to give you detailed feedback... but I get swamped. And I don't want to just give my standard "I really liked this!" reply. I could do that, if you want...
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Post by Brandon on Jun 5, 2006 8:02:38 GMT -5
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Somebody opened up a can of worms here didn't they? Ha.
I do think this is a good discussion. And an important one. People die over the basic principles of this topic and any opportunity for communities to reach new understandings and expand their viewpoints in this area is an invaluable opportunity. It has been said by many wise and thoughtful men that religion is a topic best left untouched. But in the world we live in today, I'm beginning to think that is no longer a valid option.
So, God, eh? What is he/she/it? The simple answer is that not one single solitary person on this planet knows for sure. We all just have hunches. I do know this though, collect 100 people in a room and you will have 100 different concepts on what exactly God is or whether he/she/it even exists at all. I can read every religious text on the planet and take every last idea on higher powers and/or the hereafter... and I still wouldn't be a single step closer to knowing anything for certain. I would be able to make one heck of an argument though.
But any argument about religion (that is to say the act of arguing the subject) is pretty much self-defeating, right?
I can tell you my beliefs. That I have seen things that I can't explain. That I believe that all life collectively is something more than individually. That I think that is part of what God may be. That I've looked at every religion to know for certain that if I chose one it would be my own well-informed choice, and not what I was told to believe. And that I didn't find a single one that fit my belief system and am therefore Agnostic (even though I do have a lot of respect for Buddhists, ha). I could say that any religious person or organizaton that tells you to go out and attempt to force your beliefs on others or tells you that everyone else's beliefs are wrong is missing the point. I can say that I think that a person's actions and attitude have so much more impact than any amount of philosophizing and navel gazing. That how you live your life and treat your fellow humans in the here and now is so much more important than any set of rules set forth by any religion or any guessing on what awaits us in the Great Beyond. That you can listen to moralizing all day long, but to really go out into the world and treat your fellow people will compassion and not to judge them is the real truth. That it doesn't matter if you are gay or straight or black or white or red or yellow or Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or even a follower of BOB or a Marvel or DC fan or like pie or cake or WHATEVER. If you are cool with me, then I'm cool with you. Not too much more complicated than that and really is the basic message of most religions. Except the ones that tell you to go out and blow people up. That's pretty retarded. ;D
I could say all this and it still wouldn't prove a single thing to you because you have your own thoughts and experiences.
It is simply what I believe.
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Quester
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Post by Quester on Jun 5, 2006 13:27:25 GMT -5
I havn't read people's other points but I will in a minute. This is where I stand. Im not 'religious' per se. To me this implies strict rituals and things you 'must' do to be a good person by your faith. I am however Christian and have been since and early age. I, as a christian, believe in a god who has three parts to him the father who is generally regarded as the provider and giver of life, the maker. There is his son who (and I understand if you dont get or agree with this) is also God. And then there is the spirit who gives gifts of the father and sometimes gives us the word of God. In the beginning God created the universe and saw it was good and all that jazz. He then chose to create man in his own image so that he could have a personal relationship with his followers unlike that that he shared with the angels and also so that they could be a free people with the ability to learn about and chose to worship him. In the garden of Eden, a heaven on Earth he created soully for his new people everything was right except for one thing. The serpent. This was infact Satan who was once the angel Lucifer who became proud due to sin as he like all angels and men was given free will. He led a rising of angels against God and his archangels. He was cast away from heaven as the Lord despises sin. He went into the garden in the form of an animal and introduced mankind to God's children.
Throughout history man fell further from God and as He wanted so desperatly for his people to know him and be truly happy he requested they make sacrifices to show there repentance. Soon though an ultimate sacrifice was needed and so God sent his perfect son to Earth who took on the physical form of a man and was forced to live the life of man, a poor carpenter and yet he never sinned and showed the light of God to his father's children. He showed that good deeds do not lead to heaven. Beleiving in the trinity does and beleiving in what he ultimatly did. He died as the final and last sacrifice for our sins. After that any man is free to come to God in repentance and form a relationship as the son of man rose from the grave as death could not hold him. When he accended he left his spirit. The spirit, as I said, gives us gifts from God if we seek it and spend time with the Lord forming a relationship with him. Thats mostly what I beleive...thats the basics. Please feel free to ask more.
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Quester
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Post by Quester on Jun 5, 2006 13:40:10 GMT -5
True, no one alive knows God in all of his (I will say his as that is what the Bible says and I follow that so please dont have a go at me for being sexist ;D) I very much agree. I also believe in telling the world what the Lord has done (and thus I dont always get the point of being a monk). But yeah...the whole hellfire and brimstone doesn't usually get people to have a relationship with a loving God....yeah that did sound corny but hey. see even though we fundamentally dont believe in the same thing you would be suprised how similar christians are....we dont all want to wage war on the holy land and burn Harry Potter and do other crazy (and sometimes pointless) things. Im just saying that if ya didnt want to get involved in this topic give it a go. Lets just discuss and not have a flame war. Basically we cant argue either side as neither side has sturdy undeniable facts and if one did it almost goes without saying that the other sides would not believe as each persons opinions are fundamentally faith and all you can do is understand other people's and I pray that some people will realise that there opinion may not be one that they ultimatly agree with or want to agree with. Is is me or did I ramble for so long that that lost a lot of sense? P.S that was rhetorical!!! |
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Post by HoM on Jun 5, 2006 13:43:42 GMT -5
YOU LOVE THE WRONG GOD!
*BURNS!*
Kidding! KIDDING!
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Post by Lantern Lad on Jun 5, 2006 13:49:28 GMT -5
I don't believe any certain religion has the exclusive rights to heaven & hell, though many claim they do. Do the right thing and be a good person & you're aces!
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Quester
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Post by Quester on Jun 5, 2006 14:21:51 GMT -5
Thats not what christians believe however. Or not what Christ taught, often those aren't the same thing I clarify. We believe like I said that beleiving in one true God but also that he, his son and the spirit form the trinity as well as repentance will get you into heaven. This is what many people have misconceptions about christianity. We are not Jehovah's Witnesses, we dont beleive that by doing 'good deeds' you get brownie points its more of a 'doing good deeds to please the Lord and then yeah...you get more rewards in heaven which also pleases him' kinda thing. So effectivly if a guy was on death row and truly accepted all those beliefs and repented he could enter the kingdom of his Lord which alot of people don't agree with. People say Im doing the right thing yet Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. And LL as to your first point:
"I am the way the truth and the life, the only way to the father is through me." or something like that depending on what Bible you have. Thats what we believe. I accept that as of now it would seem you don't.
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Post by artteach on Jun 5, 2006 15:53:56 GMT -5
Legacy you hit the core of true Christianity. Once you know and accept God as the way you are saved. You are going to heaven. There is no brownie points or levels in heaven. When you truely believe you do good things because you want to be like Jesus and bring others to him. It is not to get yourself a place in heaven, it is to help others get there.
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Post by artteach on Jun 5, 2006 16:02:17 GMT -5
Now I do believe some religions and beliefs do go away from that core. This is why Martin Luthor nailed his declaration on the church door and started his own church.
Batman looks best in dark blue and grey. Robin looks best in pants. Green Arrow looked great in Longbow Hunters with a HOOD, but other artist have made him look silly in the hood. Black Canary should forever have fishnets.
Pie is good!
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Post by darkknightdetec on Jun 5, 2006 16:27:15 GMT -5
Thats not what christians believe however. Or not what Christ taught, often those aren't the same thing I clarify. We believe like I said that beleiving in one true God but also that he, his son and the spirit form the trinity as well as repentance will get you into heaven. This is what many people have misconceptions about christianity. We are not Jehovah's Witnesses, we dont beleive that by doing 'good deeds' you get brownie points its more of a 'doing good deeds to please the Lord and then yeah...you get more rewards in heaven which also pleases him' kinda thing. So effectivly if a guy was on death row and truly accepted all those beliefs and repented he could enter the kingdom of his Lord which alot of people don't agree with. People say Im doing the right thing yet Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. And LL as to your first point: "I am the way the truth and the life, the only way to the father is through me." or something like that depending on what Bible you have. Thats what we believe. I accept that as of now it would seem you don't. Right, but I don't believe you necessarily have to believe in God to get to eternal hapiness. It helps, but I don't think God would completely reject someone because they didn't believe in him. Then again, I have no idea how he judges. The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that everybody, regardless of religion, holds the key to eternal hapiness because of the Passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Don't ask me to explain it, I'm never going to be able to explain it. But hey, that's my belief. |
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Post by Romans Empire on Jun 5, 2006 21:14:11 GMT -5
My wife and I just read through all the responses so far.
We both agree that being a good person and doing the right thing is great. The world would be a better place for it. But its a cope out in some ways when it comes to the matters of faith.
I think my wife summed it up best about the whole "rules and forcing beliefs on others."
There are two children. One is the good child and obeys all the rules part forth by their parents. They follow these rules because it suits them to not just because their parents told them too. But this child ignores their parents and denies their love.
The other child is a rebel and a rule breaker. Gets into trouble all the time. They reach a point in their life that they realize they did wrong and ask for forgiveness. They are truly sorry and show true love to the parents.
Do the parents love the children any differently? No they love all their children equally. That is true love from a parent to a child. This was how she explained Gods love. I liked the analogy.
As far as rules go. It rubs me the wrong way when people only obey rules and laws that are convenient for them. I am far from perfect and will never find a religion that will make the way I live my life perfect. I would never start a religion or create a god to fit my life style.
I believe these things to be true in my heart. So I would never say "I don't want to make you uncomfortable so I will tell you to love what ever god makes you feel good or its OK to ignore God because he hasn't shown his love for you. A true parent will always love their child and will always welcome him or her home.
I do not judge people for any reason and especially not for their beliefs because beliefs are much more important then just opinions.
Thats my take. Thats what I believe.
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Post by Lantern Lad on Jun 5, 2006 22:50:48 GMT -5
Out of curiosity... what you're saying is that because I believe in God & not any specific religion it's a cop out? Before I go any farther I just want to clarify.
This is why this topic shouldn't be approached... or at least approached carefully. Whenever you begin debating & trivializing others beliefs, well, usually a war starts. I believe history has shown that most wars are started over two things.
Religion & oil.
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Post by Imp on Jun 5, 2006 23:33:29 GMT -5
I think you forgot Independence, land, money, greed, broken treaties, rivalries, Xenophobes, etc...
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Post by Brandon on Jun 6, 2006 7:47:59 GMT -5
How about: politics, money, and power. I think all or most of the named items fit into those categories.  Someone made mentioned of not understanding the methodology of monks. I'll have to chime in on that and say that I think that monks, whether Catholic, Buddhist, or other otherwise, seem to be very admirable and I have a huge respect for their personal approaches to spirituality. You have inviduals that are strongly dedicated and inwardly spiritual first, and then use only their actions and attitudes to speak to others. I once personally witnessed a groups of Tibetan Monks create a sand mandala. It's a tedious task that takes days to complete where the monks create a large multi-colored mandala in an exercise in meditation. Then at the end of the process they simply sweep it away as a testament to the impermanence of all things. Related article: www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/features/mandala/It was one of the most amazing things I've seen as an action of spiritual devotion mixed with art and made more of an impression on me of what a person can find inside themselves than decades of listening to a Baptist preacher inform me of the various ways my soul was in danger of eternal torment. This is not a judgment, but an honest statement of personal experience. I witnessed one of the purest acts of the human spirit I've yet to encounter, and that is something I can believe in. If people were truly looking for the common ground with all humankind while also looking internally for what is right in themselves, I would venture to say this would be a much better world. There are many religions in the world with devoted individuals subscribing to the related doctrines, mythologies, and sacred texts: Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Jainism, Taoism, etc. You can learn more about the texts here: www.sacred-texts.com/index.htmEach group is dedicated to their faith. I'm not going to put one above the other as I think most of them have something good to say and to learn from. Even an ancient religion such as Zoroastrianism (the original monotheistic faith) has a very simple yet powerful motto: " Good thoughts, good words, good deeds." Some of you have professed a faith that you follow, which is cool. I admire anyone who has found a spiritual path to improving themselves. Just out of curiosity though, from all the leading disciplines currently practiced, how did you come to decide on that particular religion? |
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Post by dragonbat on Jun 6, 2006 8:36:05 GMT -5
I was born to Judaism. I went to the sort of religious school where they give instruction but don't actually expect the kids to follow it. For the most part, the parents leave it up to the school to teach the religion but don't practise it much in the home. So... ok, just to keep us on the same page, for example, most people know that we don't eat pork or shellfish and don't mix milk and meat. All meat must be ritually slaughtered and under rabbinical supervision. A lot of the kids I went to school with would never eat bacon or have a cheeseburger. However, they WOULD go eat at McDonalds, deciding that beef was beef and they weren't going to bother going out of their way to find a kosher restaurant (and paying more for it). Just as an aside, I worked one summer in a fast-food establishment and saw the ingredients. Their hamburgers--and I have NO clue whether this is true for McDonald's, I worked for another franchise chain--contain milk.
Synagogue was something to attend only for the High Holidays (Rosh HaShannah and Yom Kippur). I guess for a Catholic, that would probably be like going to church solely for Midnight Mass on Xmas Eve, and Easter Sunday.
I finished high school knowing just enough that I felt I knew enough, and not enough to realize how superficial my religious education was.
When I was 22, I moved to a new city, and I felt very alone and cut off from my family. I moved into a Jewish neighborhood. The holidays were difficult alone, and I found out about a network that placed singles (or in some cases, couples) with families for meals. I want to be very clear: nobody at any time tried to get me to attend synagogue services, or make any changes to my lifestyle. The most criticism I got would be if I were to mention something outside their sphere (a lot of Orthodox Jews won't go to movies, for example, because of...well, let's call it the immodest dress and decline of morals as portrayed by Hollywood) was a simple "we don't do that." They were not judgmental, they just politely and firmly declined to continue that topic of conversation.
At the same time, they were very well aware of the outside world. And they seemed extremely comfortable in their outlook. I was curious. So I started doing my own research. The more I read, the more sense it made. I started making small changes, and they felt right. I'm still reading and learning.
So, to answer your question, I was born Jewish. After careful study and observation, I chose to affiliate with the Orthodox--some would say "ultra" Orthodox, although I don't--community.
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Quester
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Post by Quester on Jun 6, 2006 13:22:24 GMT -5
I have a lot of respect for monks however I dont quite get (and this doesn't mean I think they are in the wrong it just means that some point I would like to talk to a monk in more depth...and here I am talking about CHRISTIAN monks just to clarify). Christs final words before his assention include a point that we should go into the world and tell everyone of the good news and although some monks do have a lot more interaction with the outside world that others I dont quite get how staying solitary does this...especially those who take a vow of silence. And KSM on your last point I did not chose Christianity. You dont chose the truth...when someone comes and finds you and seeks you and you realise that someone is looking for you and you answer you havent really chosen anything except acceptance of the truth.
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Post by HoM on Jun 6, 2006 13:37:33 GMT -5
Question: Why not buddist monks?
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Post by Romans Empire on Jun 6, 2006 16:43:02 GMT -5
Out of curiosity... what you're saying is that because I believe in God & not any specific religion it's a cop out? Before I go any farther I just want to clarify. I never said nor meant to imply that you had to belong to an organized religion to believe in God. The cop out I was referring to was matters of faith. What I should have said is: Being a good person and doing good deeds doesn't mean you have FAITH. I don't believe you can earn Gods love by being a "good person". I don't think there is any way to "earn" Gods love. I am not a fan of "religion". I am a big believer in "faith". But I will never judge anyone for having different beliefs or faith in something or someone else. I have no desire to finger wag or try to shove my beliefs down anyones throat. These are my beliefs. I do not think I am better then anyone else for them but I do believe in the faith I have. The cop out refers to wishy-washy do whatever feels good "religions". I do think that this topic should be approached carefully. I also think it should be approached voluntarily. If this is a topic that bothers someone, just ignore it. I have no desire to debate with anyone here on this topic. Nor will I ever trivialize others beliefs. I hope I have made that clear. The trap here is like any message board on the internet, people don't pay attention or only read what they want to. Or a bigger problem is reading into something the wrong way. That happens all of the time here and a lot of other places. It has already happened in this thread a couple of times. Someone said one thing and someone else got it wrong. Or in this case I didn't clarify what I was trying to say and it was taken wrong. That my friend, has to be in the top 5 of things that cause wars as well! I hope I made more sense this time! |
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Post by Lantern Lad on Jun 6, 2006 16:58:03 GMT -5
Yes, thank you for the clarification. No harm, no foul. I believe that having a belief in something is to have faith in something, at least for me, that's what it means. So I guess we're sort of on the same page. And I agree with what else you said...
I do not think this topic should continue though, because people are bound to be offended & we're all supposed to be one big happy DC2 Universe here.
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Post by Romans Empire on Jun 6, 2006 17:08:04 GMT -5
I am glad we are clear now.
I agree that this shouldn't continue either. People are bound to get upset and or offended. Maybe in PM if two people want to communicate more on this?
We can all have different faiths or beliefs and co-exist in this happy family!
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Post by Lantern Lad on Jun 6, 2006 17:09:08 GMT -5
And KSM on your last point I did not chose Christianity. You dont chose the truth... This statement is why this is a dangerous subject in the world. And why I believe this thread shouldn't be here... |
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Post by starlord on Jun 6, 2006 17:31:08 GMT -5
I like cake.
I believe in Santa Claus
I believe that there is a power far greater then what we could ever comprehend.
I believe in legal unions for everybody.
I believe a lot of Brandon's comments were dead on.
I believe Ellen should be working for DC as their Nightwing writer.
I believe that David and company have created one helluva sight that continues to grow and get better every month.
and most importantly.
I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they posses inside.
I believe I'm done here. ;D
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Post by Lantern Lad on Jun 6, 2006 17:34:03 GMT -5
With that note...
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Post by Admin on Jun 6, 2006 17:47:37 GMT -5
Agreed. I'm locking this thread, now.
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