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Post by David on Jul 17, 2008 8:28:11 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for that life lesson, Charlie! Well, I do try!   But what I meant is deaths should mean something. Did Black Adam sticking his hand through the chest of Terra (or whatever he did?) mean something? No. Pure shock value, nothing redeeming about it. But this built on something that could have just been plain awful standing alone. My point was that you thought you needed to tell me that, as if you had some insight that had escaped me. |
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Post by HoM on Jul 17, 2008 8:30:13 GMT -5
I was being exuberant. Then enthusiastic!  |
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Post by Merai on Jul 17, 2008 8:48:45 GMT -5
O yeah, The Gathering of the Five! I actually enjoyed the resolution to that story, with the Daily Bugle building about to fall, but I get you man, it was weak not showing the final battle. ....I have to disagree with you here, Charlie. I honestly felt that scene to be completely ridiculous. The problem was, it wasn't in any way ambiguous. It was extremely clear, including to all the bystanders, that Spider-Man was holding up the Daily Bugle until it was safe. I know in Marvel the people are generally idiots when it comes to heroes, but for almost everyone in the crowd to be literally chanting Spider-Man's abuse as he holds up the building was beyond absurd. They weren't even saying "He's just cleaning up his own mess!", they were actively abusing him for holding the building up. I'm not sure what was more discouraging, the idea that the Marvel public had sunk to new lows of abject, self-destructive stupidity or that Spider-Man actually became discouraged enough to quit for months. That's not the Peter Parker I know! ...Plus, I feel a need to mention this again. Norman Osborn. Magic ritual. It's literally as if Doctor Doom decidied to lead a street gang or the Joker decidied to own a billionaire industrial company, it is so completely unfitting to the character as to make you wonder if this is even the same charcacter you remember. Then, y'know, you throw in the evil trees, some of the most blatant villain expositioning this side of the sixties, Norman Osborn being beaten off-panel, his "ultimate plan" being to kill everyone on Earth (  ?) and the single worst resurrection in comic book history.... "weak" is an understatement, IMO. |
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Post by arcalian on Jul 17, 2008 15:36:45 GMT -5
He punched her through the chest. Crunch. It was awful.  |
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Post by HoM on Jul 17, 2008 16:14:01 GMT -5
And pointless. Terra isn't someone that everyone cares about. Neither was Kid Frankenstein. Their deaths did nothing but ramp up Black Adam's "ruthlessness quota", and also show the entire World War III miniseries to be a waste of time.
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Post by arcalian on Jul 17, 2008 16:19:04 GMT -5
No indeed, not everyone cares about the same characters. And indeed, WW3 was unneccesary. Wasn't the only thing under the Didio administration that was unneccesary, either. Which ties back into the topic.  Identity Crisis still hurts, for example. |
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Post by HoM on Jul 17, 2008 17:10:32 GMT -5
And I still respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. I think he's brought a lot of relevance back to the universe, and I'm always excited for the next big thing to come from his tenure as EiC. I know I prefer him to Joe Q. I prefer Identity Crisis to Our World At War, Infinite Crisis to King Joker, etc etc. He's made me care about the characters again.
Back on topic:
Oo! Oo!
Word Comic Book Moment? A prolonged one: One. More. Day.
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Post by Merai on Jul 17, 2008 17:19:29 GMT -5
And I still respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. I think he's brought a lot of relevance back to the universe, and I'm always excited for the next big thing to come from his tenure as EiC. I know I prefer him to Joe Q. I prefer Identity Crisis to Our World At War, Infinite Crisis to King Joker, etc etc. Yeah, but that's kind of like saying "I prefer Secret Wars II to Zero Hour". Just because it's better than an abomination, doesn't make it good. Not that Infinite Crisis was bad, just anticlimatic and outrageously convoluted. I dunno, I really don't like Dan DiDio for a lot of reasons, but I think he was fine until "One Year Later." Nothing has recovered since then. Look up the thread. I maintain now, as I did before, that if the writing itself is of good calibre and the art's damn good, it shouldn't be considered the worst ever. |
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Post by HoM on Jul 17, 2008 17:31:36 GMT -5
Well I loved the One Year Later jump. Face The Face was one of the best Batman stories ever pretty alright apart from the ending ( ), and look what else came out from it: Sinestro Corps War! Justice Society of America! I think the successes far outweigh the failings. |
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Post by craigcermak on Jul 17, 2008 17:45:47 GMT -5
Face the Face was awful, Charlie! You could tell that in the very first issue Robinson was bored to tears. That's what happens when Greg Rucka is supposed to write something and editorial shoves it down someone elses throat...
...and don't even get me started on the Don Kramer art. EUCH.
And saying SCW and JSA came out of OYL? They had no relation to the One Year jump at all. Those books would've happened regardless. Johns (along with only a select few) are allowed to do what they want at DC.
I must say I respect Joe Quesada way more than I do Dan Didio simply because he lets those under him do their job. Oh, and he can actually keep talent.
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impulseallen
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Post by impulseallen on Jul 17, 2008 17:48:01 GMT -5
Well I loved the One Year Later jump. Face The Face was one of the best Batman stories ever, and look what else came out from it: Sinestro Corps War! Justice Society of America! I think the successes far outweigh the failings. SINESTRO CORPS WAR RULED! And one of my favorite characters was in it(Superboy/man(lol) Prime!) Yes I know I'm alone on that one lol. |
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Post by Merai on Jul 17, 2008 17:57:19 GMT -5
F And saying SCW and JSA came out of OYL? They had no relation to the One Year jump at all. Those books would've happened regardless. Johns (along with only a select few) are allowed to do what they want at DC. I must say I respect Joe Quesada way more than I do Dan Didio simply because he lets those under him do their job. Oh, and he can actually keep talent. I agree with Craig on both counts. SCW in particular really had nothing to do with One Year Later. All that really did was give an excuse to launch some new number ones and destroy the Flash. |
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Dr Dread
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Post by Dr Dread on Jul 17, 2008 18:27:09 GMT -5
I must say I respect Joe Quesada way more than I do Dan Didio simply because he lets those under him do their job. Oh, and he can actually keep talent. Apart from your personal opinion, which I respect, I disagree with everything in that statement, Craig. J. Micheal Straczynski was bullied by Q to write One More Day as his final arc. He shortly later announced he was leaving for DC. No matter who got credited as writer of One More Day, we all knew who had pushed it down the line. In fact JMS asked that his name be removed from credits for OMD for the last two issues. Mark Bagley never went on record as to why he left Marvel. This is the guy who I had always coined as "Marvel for life". I think the only thing that kept him hanging around at Marvel was his friendship with Bendis. Red and gold Spidey... who's idea was that? I appreciate that you like what Joe Q has done, and he has done good things in Marvel. However, he's done a lot of dick moves too. |
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Post by craigcermak on Jul 17, 2008 18:45:24 GMT -5
Yet JMS is STILL writing Thor AND The Twelve with more to come from Marvel. Yes, he's doing some stuff at DC, but he didn't say "Piss off Marvel! You guys totally screwed me!" And he still wrote the Spider-Man issues. You really think Joe Q FORCED him to write the story? Are you FORCED to do work? If it's really that bad, you quit! If he hated it that badly why wouldn't he just say no thank you, I'm not writing this. Yes, I know about JMS asking to have his name removed, but in the end, he decided not to. It was HIS decision and he made it. Sorry, bad argument.
And Mark Bagley wanted to just work at DC. Just like the Dodsons, Sean Chen, and countless others. Not to mention that his good friend Kurt Busiek had something to do it. Bagley KNOWS there's a place for him at Marvel.
And costume design that doesn't exist anymore? What's your point? That's hardly a "dick move."
I've seen more DC guys head to Marvel in the last six months than I've seen Marvel guys come to DC in the last 2 years. I don't know how you can disagree with that.
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Post by zirron on Jul 17, 2008 18:49:07 GMT -5
He punched her through the chest. Crunch. It was awful. and completely pointless... |
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Post by Merai on Jul 17, 2008 19:01:22 GMT -5
Bullied? He made a choice, and was willing. He was asked to write OMD, and he agreed, he even actively took part in the planning process and voted for it in the Marvel vote. (The only votes we know are that he and Joe Q were for it and Mark Millar was against it, though it was apparantly a landslide.) He decidied to write OMD, that's a fact. He had no feelings on the marriage either day. There was controversy of course about HOW to do it, but in the end, he agreed to Joe Q's way, and that's that. He may have considered taking his name off it... but he didn't take his name off it. Nor did he leave Marvel. Nor did he do anything but defend Joe Q himself in all his statements since then, and say that absolutely, he did a tough thing which he thought was right and that's all anyone can ask.
Regardless of feelings for the story itself, to say he was bullied into doing it is disingenuous to Joe Q for implying he'd do it, disingenuous to JMS for implying he could be bullied into it and disingenuous to the truth.
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Dr Dread
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Post by Dr Dread on Jul 17, 2008 19:26:37 GMT -5
You really think Joe Q FORCED him to write the story? Are you FORCED to do work? There have been a lot of times when my personal beliefs and company policies are in conflict. I have to do what the company wants. When I get paged at 3am on a Sunday to drive across town to reboot a router with no compensation, then yes I consider myself being forced to work. I am getting no other reward but keeping my job. Bullied? He made a choice, and was willing. A willing writer does not ask for his name to be removed from his oeuvre. "There's a lot that I don't agree with, and I made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel, especially Joe Quesada... there was a point where I made the decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those." -JMS in an interview on comicbookresources.com |
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Post by Merai on Jul 17, 2008 19:29:55 GMT -5
Those are specifically the last two issues though, not the whole story. He was absolutely onboard with the story- what he disagreed with was the implementation of the second half. And the fact remains that as he said himself, he was persuaded not to take his name off it.
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Post by arcalian on Jul 17, 2008 19:46:23 GMT -5
And I still respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. I think he's brought a lot of relevance back to the universe, and I'm always excited for the next big thing to come from his tenure as EiC. I know I prefer him to Joe Q. I prefer Identity Crisis to Our World At War, Infinite Crisis to King Joker, etc etc. He's made me care about the characters again. I knew this already, but if I didn't, it would come as no surprise that, let me put my own emphasis on your words, you respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. What he's done to it is exactly right. Me, I cared for the characters already, I don't need somebody to screw them over to care about them. I'm like that; I care about the characters, full stop. I also don't need a big, extravagant, cost-me-more-money mega event to make me care. As for being better than Joe Q. Well, my only exposure to Joe Q's Marvel administration was seeing Spidey unmask during the Civil War. So for the most part I'll have to take your word for it. But even so, that's.....not saying very much. |
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Post by craigcermak on Jul 17, 2008 20:16:47 GMT -5
You really think Joe Q FORCED him to write the story? Are you FORCED to do work? There have been a lot of times when my personal beliefs and company policies are in conflict. I have to do what the company wants. When I get paged at 3am on a Sunday to drive across town to reboot a router with no compensation, then yes I consider myself being forced to work. I am getting no other reward but keeping my job. Bullied? He made a choice, and was willing. A willing writer does not ask for his name to be removed from his oeuvre. "There's a lot that I don't agree with, and I made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel, especially Joe Quesada... there was a point where I made the decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those." -JMS in an interview on comicbookresources.com But you're still making the decision to agree to do what your company wants, correct? TECHNICALLY, like any human being with free will, you can say no. Yes, you lose the job, but that's how it works. Saying Joe Quesada forced a writer to write a book and that the writer doesn't have a say in whether or not he writes it is silly, sorry. And with the qoute, JMS even shows how he respects Marvel. He knows what he wrote and he was willing enough to go through with it. It really isn't a huge ordeal like message boards make it. If a writer was seriously being bullied, I'm sure they would be open about it. Why does the name Chuck Dixon come to mind...? |
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Post by David on Jul 17, 2008 21:37:17 GMT -5
When it comes to worst moments in comics, for me that's gotta involve Judd Winick. Not a fan of what he did to Ollie Queen (a ninja? really?), not a fan of his Outsiders run (how do you make Dick Grayson an a-hole!?!), and definately not a fan of his mangling of the Shazam mythos. Only his most recent Titans run has been tolerable (though barely).
(For the record, I admire his activism, but I rarely read anything he's written without cringing.)
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Post by Dr Dread on Jul 17, 2008 21:43:26 GMT -5
But you're still making the decision to agree to do what your company wants, correct? TECHNICALLY, like any human being with free will, you can say no. Yes, you lose the job, but that's how it works. Saying Joe Quesada forced a writer to write a book and that the writer doesn't have a say in whether or not he writes it is silly, sorry. And with the qoute, JMS even shows how he respects Marvel. He knows what he wrote and he was willing enough to go through with it. It really isn't a huge ordeal like message boards make it. If a writer was seriously being bullied, I'm sure they would be open about it. Why does the name Chuck Dixon come to mind...? There is such a term as acting "professionally". Part of this is not airing dirty laundry outside. I'm sure JMS still respects Joe Q and Marvel, but I'm sure he was asked to do things he wasn't 100% willing to do. That's part of any business. Maybe I overstepped my comment by using the word "bully". Maybe the word "ordered" or "by executive request" would have been more acceptable. I think my point, being that Joe Q doesn't lets his people do everything they want, is still stands. I'm sure many writers feel freedom in what they want to write, but I think the same can be said for writers working for Dan Didio. |
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Post by Dr Dread on Jul 17, 2008 21:45:47 GMT -5
When it comes to worst moments in comics, for me that's gotta involve Judd Winick. Not a fan of what he did to Ollie Queen (a ninja? really?), not a fan of his Outsiders run (how do you make Dick Grayson an a-hole!?!), and definately not a fan of his mangling of the Shazam mythos. Only his most recent Titans run has been tolerable (though barely). (For the record, I admire his activism, but I rarely read anything he's written without cringing.) I agree with you on Judd Winick Dave. I tried, LORD did I try and give Power of Shazam a chance. That was the worst betrayal ever. He's top on my "must avoid" list. |
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Post by Merai on Jul 18, 2008 5:21:49 GMT -5
I think my point, being that Joe Q doesn't lets his people do everything they want, is still stands. I'm sure many writers feel freedom in what they want to write, but I think the same can be said for writers working for Dan Didio. Really? See I'm not so sure about that. JMS agreed to tell a story, had a disagreement on how to tell it and ended up telling it a different way, sure, but that's because it was a big, big event and these things are always changed. On a normal writer level, I don't think DC enjoys the same freedoms for people who aren't Morrison or Johns or Meltzer etc. As well as Chuck Dixon, I'd point you to Dwayne McDuffie who has been flat out told what his team must be and what he can do with it and had to suddenly change all his plans because Johns wanted to use the villains he had planned. And let us not forget McDuffie writes DC's best selling monthly title. And then there's Shooter allegedly leaving the Legion due to changes they put on it without telling him (Though he's apparantly back). I don't think you can really find as many examples of that stuff over at Marvel. |
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Post by brigante133 on Jul 18, 2008 7:40:59 GMT -5
Shouldn't this whole discussion be happening under a thread that is about Marvel vs DC as opposed to worst comic book moments? no? alright.
Saying the OYL Jump was entirely worthless is kind of a broad stroke though, Craig. Did you read every single thing that came out of it? I really liked Blue Beetle and the Secret Six mini which were some of the few things I read from OYL and both were fantastic. I don't want to get into a Marvel vs DC thing with you again because that's so boring. Comparing Dixon's exit to JMS' is also sort of unfair because if I recall Dixon isn't exactly welcomed at Marvel either now is he? I'm sure if he was he'd be there so that could be a difference in people and not entire companies. We are pretty much all outsiders to the industry so I don't want to pretend I know the politics when you hear completely different stories from every one.
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Post by HoM on Jul 18, 2008 9:55:02 GMT -5
And I still respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. I think he's brought a lot of relevance back to the universe, and I'm always excited for the next big thing to come from his tenure as EiC. I know I prefer him to Joe Q. I prefer Identity Crisis to Our World At War, Infinite Crisis to King Joker, etc etc. He's made me care about the characters again. I knew this already, but if I didn't, it would come as no surprise that, let me put my own emphasis on your words, you respect Dan Didio for what he's done to the DCU. What he's done to it is exactly right. Me, I cared for the characters already, I don't need somebody to screw them over to care about them. I'm like that; I care about the characters, full stop. I also don't need a big, extravagant, cost-me-more-money mega event to make me care. Are you saying I do? Because I've enjoyed, more than the big events (barring Sinestro Corps, of course, heh) the smaller, quieter moments. I've enjoyed Batman facing his worst nightmare (the BaneBatman) in Batman, and have to say it was one of the tightest stories I've read for a long time. Wonder Woman under Simone is awesome. BoP was consistently strong under her tenure. Green Lantern has gone from strength to strength. The Flash had its awkward starts but I enjoyed Bart as the lead character (Guggenhiem made it work, and it was a shame they killed him). Loved Blue Beetle, the first 25 issues were just perfection, and all the other stuff that has been released during his tenure. Didio is getting awesome creators on awesome books and I'm more likely to read DC than Marvel because of that. When I look at Marvel I see big name television writers failing at upholding deadlines (Heinberg on both companies of course though) and that just turns me off. Anyway, DC for life |
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Post by HoM on Jul 18, 2008 9:57:58 GMT -5
When it comes to worst moments in comics, for me that's gotta involve Judd Winick. Not a fan of what he did to Ollie Queen (a ninja? really?), not a fan of his Outsiders run (how do you make Dick Grayson an a-hole!?!), and definately not a fan of his mangling of the Shazam mythos. Only his most recent Titans run has been tolerable (though barely). (For the record, I admire his activism, but I rarely read anything he's written without cringing.) I agree with you on Judd Winick Dave. I tried, LORD did I try and give Power of Shazam a chance. That was the worst betrayal ever. He's top on my "must avoid" list. Oh, his OYL leap was so hard to read. I loved the Mayor Queen tangent, but the ninja-fighter-warrior stuff was just difficult. I'm gonna' say that when Hester left the book, it lost any and all appeal to me. "City Walls" was a poor man's "Grand Guignol" but I don't hold it against Winnick. |
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Post by craigcermak on Jul 18, 2008 10:24:28 GMT -5
Shouldn't this whole discussion be happening under a thread that is about Marvel vs DC as opposed to worst comic book moments? no? alright. Saying the OYL Jump was entirely worthless is kind of a broad stroke though, Craig. Did you read every single thing that came out of it? I really liked Blue Beetle and the Secret Six mini which were some of the few things I read from OYL and both were fantastic. I don't want to get into a Marvel vs DC thing with you again because that's so boring. Comparing Dixon's exit to JMS' is also sort of unfair because if I recall Dixon isn't exactly welcomed at Marvel either now is he? I'm sure if he was he'd be there so that could be a difference in people and not entire companies. We are pretty much all outsiders to the industry so I don't want to pretend I know the politics when you hear completely different stories from every one. Uh, nowhere did I say that the OYL jump was entirely worthless. Don't know where you got that. AND YES, I did read every single book that came from it. I really wish I didn't. As for Dixon and Marvel, Joe Q has stated in his Myspace column (I'm pretty sure you don't read it, which is fine) that there's even a place for Chuck there (now that DC has let him go). However, that's not to say Chuck wants to work for Marvel. |
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Post by Merai on Jul 18, 2008 11:50:45 GMT -5
When I look at Marvel I see big name television writers failing at upholding deadlines Amazing Spider-Man- hasn't missed a deadline (Exception of Civil War, where it wasn't the writer's fault, and the OMD one-off) in years Fantastic Four- Ditto Captain America- Ditto Uncanny X-Men- Ditto New Avengers- Ditto ....besides "Runaways" and "Astonishing X-Men", I sure as heck don't know what you mean. How about we compare that to the "All-Star" line at DC, or, for that matter, to the Superman books since One Year Later- how about the Kuberts on Batman, or Wonder Woman pre Gail Simone? And that's without even mentioning the fill-in artists. On, say, major high profile events that have had nearly two years of lead time and can't even make four issues without a fill-in? Sorry, charlie, there are a lot of complaints to be levelled at Marvel right now but I don't see how DC have the high ground when it comes to delays on major books. |
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Post by HoM on Jul 18, 2008 13:20:24 GMT -5
I meant Ultimate Wolverine Vs Hulk, Young Avengers, etc.
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?) and the single worst resurrection in comic book history.... "weak" is an understatement, IMO. 
