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*52
Feb 22, 2007 15:14:01 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Feb 22, 2007 15:14:01 GMT -5
This is what I think is wrong with some fans. A writers handles a character badly, and then they're turned off by him. They don't go near him. I'm always going to give new writers a chance, either by buying the issue or reading it in store. Bruce Jones was bad. Yes. But Marc Adrenyenko (sp?) might not be when he does the Nightwing/Oracle Annual!! Marv Wolfman defintely isn't! His guest appearances aren't! I like the character of Nightwing, but I also like it when writers take RISKS. Sitting safely in your status quo doesn't get you anywhere. That's why I love OYL and 52.
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*52
Feb 22, 2007 15:30:08 GMT -5
Post by arcalian on Feb 22, 2007 15:30:08 GMT -5
There's taking risks...and then there's forgetting what makes a character a both a hero and Who They Are in the first place.
For 17 years, I gave DC the benefit of the doubt, watched the writers walk through that revolving door, and waited for things to turn around. Waited for things to get better.
They never did. Instead, they got progressively worse.
That's why I'm here, writing DC2 stuff, or starting to; and why I'm down to exactly one DCU title, and still that one only because my subpscription has yet to expire.
That's what *I* think is wrong, with some fans and many "professionals".
But, I will not debate this further. I will not get in another flame war, especially with a soul kind enough to comission my work. Been there, done that, bought the post card, beat the dead horse, beat my head agianst that brick wall. Too many times. Not again.
I came here because DC2 gives me the opportunity to do it how I think it should be done. To make friends, not get into arguments. I don't want to piss anybody off here. I spent more than a decade trying to convince people of my viewpoint before I realized what an exercise in futility it was.
I don't want to antagonize House of Mystery, or anybody else.
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*52
Feb 22, 2007 15:41:39 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Feb 22, 2007 15:41:39 GMT -5
You make some good points Arc! And I totally understand. House of M, Decimation and Civil War turned me off Marvel. I love Captain America. And I loved Iron Man.
Not anymore.
So now I'm a DC only dude!
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*52
Feb 22, 2007 18:36:45 GMT -5
Post by David on Feb 22, 2007 18:36:45 GMT -5
I hear you, too, Arc! I didn't read a comic book the entire decade of the 90s, and some of the ones I read now are purely out of habit and hope.
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*52
Feb 23, 2007 8:49:38 GMT -5
Post by goldk on Feb 23, 2007 8:49:38 GMT -5
Dick Grayson is dead?
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*52
Feb 23, 2007 13:21:26 GMT -5
Post by starlord on Feb 23, 2007 13:21:26 GMT -5
not yet, but give them time. Didio has been gunning for him for a while now.  |
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*52
Feb 27, 2007 8:46:12 GMT -5
Post by Crow on Feb 27, 2007 8:46:12 GMT -5
why is everyone after Dick?
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*52
Mar 12, 2007 7:27:08 GMT -5
Post by David on Mar 12, 2007 7:27:08 GMT -5
Well, it looks like this series is gearing up for a big finish! I loved the "Dibney Beats the Devil" issue a few weeks back, and the events in Kahndaq last week were ca-razy!
WWIII is still a few weeks away (in which the JSA have a big role, I hear!), and finally the mystery of "52" is revealed (gotta be some kind of Multiverse revelation).
Anyone think Black Adam comes out of this alive? I think the Suicide Squad is going to live up to their name going after him (why haven't we seen Atom Smasher post-52?)...!
I'm on the edge of my seat on this one... And I will definately be picking up Countdown!
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*52
Mar 12, 2007 8:38:21 GMT -5
Post by starlord on Mar 12, 2007 8:38:21 GMT -5
The Dibney stuff was good, but this last issue with Black Adam was awesome!! Even knowing from the beginning how this was going to turn out, it didn't stop it from being powerful.
I, too, will be getting Countdown. A weekly book is actually kind of fun?
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*52
Apr 2, 2007 0:31:32 GMT -5
Post by Lantern Lad on Apr 2, 2007 0:31:32 GMT -5
Yes, fun... but very expensive. Maybe Lowe's will give me a raise to quell my thirst for weekly books...
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*52
Apr 2, 2007 8:01:24 GMT -5
Post by Crow on Apr 2, 2007 8:01:24 GMT -5
One of the reason's I like graphic novels is that I can keep reading straight through. Weekly comics are awesome because I don't have to wait too long to see the next part.
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*52
Apr 15, 2007 6:42:38 GMT -5
Post by >>Riz! on Apr 15, 2007 6:42:38 GMT -5
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*52
Apr 15, 2007 9:03:03 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 15, 2007 9:03:03 GMT -5
Dying. Dead. Dead and dying. Returning to the future.  |
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*52
Apr 15, 2007 9:41:19 GMT -5
Post by >>Riz! on Apr 15, 2007 9:41:19 GMT -5
I hope not. Lazarus Pit I hope not and it's a shame Yeah  |
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*52
Apr 15, 2007 9:44:01 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 15, 2007 9:44:01 GMT -5
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*52
Apr 18, 2007 23:05:20 GMT -5
Post by arcalian on Apr 18, 2007 23:05:20 GMT -5
Regarding 52 special World War III: Hell is for Heroes.
Well, that's that. Nothing I didn't expect, really.
I could say a lot about this, but I've said it elsewhere, and will again. No need to repeat most of it here. Everybody here knows what I think. Suffice it to say DC2 is, as I anticipated, the only place for me now where heroes are concerned.
*carries Terra's body into DC2 continuity and reanimates her* Wake up, Tara, you have much to do....and this time we're going to do it right.
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*52
Apr 19, 2007 5:49:15 GMT -5
Post by David on Apr 19, 2007 5:49:15 GMT -5
I haven't read the WWIII specials yet, but I had Terra's fate spoiled for me; sounds like a gruesome way to go! My condolences, Jay.  In fact, the more I think of it, the less I like the whole WWIII idea. Sounds like they're using this mini-event to explain all the drastic OYL changes in the DCU--- wasn't 52 the series as a whole supposed to do that? Now, it's all shoehorned into WWIII (Aquaman's transformation is somewhow connected to WWIII?)... This wasn't an expolration of the newly redefined DCU, this was a halfway decent story about a handful of secondary characters, some of which was boring (The Question, Infinity, Inc, Ralph Dibney) and some of which was decent (the space castaways, Black Adam, Booster Gold, Oolong Island). I'm feeling a bit cheated. The actual mystery of the 52 (presumably the Multiverse) better be worth the year-long reveal...! On a different note, I love the serendipity of the series ending on 5/2... DC should do some crazy live event on the streets outside their offices--- Brandon Routh and Christian Bale sign autographs as their film characters... Or better yet, have some other actors dressed as Booster, Montoya, Batwoman, Black Adam, etc! They need something to rival the "Death of Captain America" media hoopla! |
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*52
Apr 19, 2007 6:14:03 GMT -5
Post by arcalian on Apr 19, 2007 6:14:03 GMT -5
Thanks, Idlewilder...it's nothing I didn't expect....been dreading this moment since July of last year.
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*52
Apr 19, 2007 8:23:22 GMT -5
Post by Crow on Apr 19, 2007 8:23:22 GMT -5
I have to agree that I thought 52, on it's own, as a contained entity, would explain OYL, not one little special. But I did enjoy seeing how things changed for DC2, even if it was a "We-forgot-to-do-this-in-the-series-we-made-just-for-this-so-let's-do-it-all-in-one-mini-event-that-is-four-issues-long-but-all-sold-in-one-day" kind of thing. I thought WWIII was going to be a big, big event at the end of 52, but now I see differently.
And 5/2, the end of 52, is my birthday! I can't believe it. I wonder if they knew, while they were planning Infinite Crisis and 52 a some time ago, that 52 would on 5/2. Like, when they planned IC a few years back, did they say "Oh wow. In 2007, 5/2 is a wednesday...and if we did a year long event to follow IC, we could name it 52, like the weeks in a year, and make it end on, get this...5/2!" And then everyone goes "Oooooo"
Anyways, I'm glad the "big mystery ending" is almost here, and Spiderman 3 comes out a few days later.
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*52
Apr 19, 2007 16:00:04 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 19, 2007 16:00:04 GMT -5
I loved what happened to Black Adam... So poignant? When I sit down and actually buy the issues... All of them, in one sitting (I haven't bought an issue since Ralph died, through lack of funds)... It's going to rock. And I loved Booster! He was EVERYWHERE! for 2.5 pages.  |
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*52
Apr 20, 2007 0:03:03 GMT -5
Post by michealdark on Apr 20, 2007 0:03:03 GMT -5
all of you know,I am a fan of Tara's. A BIG fan. So of course I can't let this slide without my feelings coming out.
Let me start off by commenting on the obvious...the bad:
This was a waste of a perfectly good character. Of course there's the unresolved plot line. Which you'd figure that with DC saying they were going to "take care" of that in 52(or apparently as it seems WWIII),meant that even if they meant to kill her,they were going to resolve that plot line first. Tara was also a popular character. She could have at least carried a mini to resolve that plotline on her own I think. And also she's just a joy to read,much like the original was. Sure,many other females in the DCU share her traits;sarcastic,tempermental,quick-witted,liked teasing her friends and team mates,boastful,loud,opinionated,obnoxious,but at the same time she caring,intense,"never-say-die",and devoted to being a hero...but the good thing about DC is that even though they have so many characters with similiar traits,most of them(especially the more fleshed out ones) still manage to be their own people. And Tara CERTAINLY was a unique individual.
And also...I just have to comment on the art...I don't know what to make of it. First of all,I've always hated the "Titans of Tommorow" Terra outfit. God that's gawdy! That like burns the eyes. And the 80's style linebacker/Joan Collins shoulder pads? BUT...Tara did look good today. So did Adam. So did Zatara. Raven looked okay at best though,and Gar and Young Frankenstein looked a trifling mess! Wow!
Okay,so was there any good in all of this?
Yes,to me there was. My biggest fears about this whole situation were avoided. You see I was afraid that Tara was going to find out she and Tara I are the same,and the rest of the heroes were going to have to kill her again because she freaked out and went on a rampage. Now don't get me wrong,I have no problem with the Taras being the same. In fact it's the angle I'm using in my fanfic. But there's other interesting stories you could tell with that instead of the "she's evil again,we've gotta kill her" one. But no,we actually didn't get that. Instead Tara got a good death I think. Instead,Ostrander had some respect for the character. She died as a hero,which for me was the thing I wanted most for her if she had to die. And she also went out in typical Tara fashion;ballsy and confrontational to the end. So for that I commend Ostrander.
And lastly,any glimmers of hope perhaps?
Of course the arguement will be made that she'll come back at some time. Which she more than likely will. But that could happen tommorow,or it could happen 5 or 10 years from now! There are some current events though that do give hope to Tara fans that at least her memory will continue and that her story will finally be finished. The first is what's happening to Brion in JLA. Brad has to have something up his sleeve here,and it should be fun to see what it is. The other is more importantly the Terra mini. As I've come to understand it,the basic set up is to tell the story of both Taras and then tell the story of the current Terra,who she is,and how she ties into both of them. Presumably we should get our deffinative origin for Tara there. And,PRESUMABLY. If not...THEN you're going to hear something from me. And while I promise I'll to keep it respectable like I did here,you can bet it won't be happy.
Thank you for your time. I hope you take the time to read this and comment if you like. And thank you mods for getting rid of the original so quickly.
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*52
Apr 20, 2007 9:23:35 GMT -5
Post by Lantern Lad on Apr 20, 2007 9:23:35 GMT -5
I thought WWIII was a waste of money. The story in 52 #50 was better written and far more interesting. It felt as though it was a shoddy and thrown together mess. The writers were like, "oh no, we still haven't explained the new LAME looks for Orin & the Martian Manhunter! Maybe we can tie them into Black Adam's story (kinda... I'm still not sure why they did what they did to Aquaman.). I've loved 52. It has been a great series with the occasional lull... but overall, more great than not.
As far as Aquaman is concerned they have ruined one of my favorite characters. I tried the new series, collected it through #46 and asked myself: "Why?" There's nothing special about it at all, it's boring, and it isn't even the character I've grown to love throughout the years. That guy has a squid head now...
The Martian Manhunters look bugged me so much I just didn't bother with it. Which is unusual, I usually don't let the art dictate what I read. But J'onn is a classic character, with a classic look not to be messed with (sorry, but I really hate his look here as well).
I was pleased that Black Adam survived, even if it was used as a plot device to bring him back later (like Aunt May in a coma at the big M).
As far as Terra's concerned: I just didn't care. She was a character that should have stayed dead in the 80's in the New Teen Titans book. That story was amazing and poignant. She has done nothing since that even warrants the slightest attention. Sorry, but that's just my opinion.
All in all I felt that WWIII was just a way to make a few more bucks off of us devout 52 readers.
52 ends in two weeks, and all I can say is this: The payoff had better be worth the wait!
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*52
Apr 20, 2007 13:57:33 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 20, 2007 13:57:33 GMT -5
Likewise. And it wasn't even the original Terra, it was a shoddy future version.
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 0:57:15 GMT -5
Post by chaltab on Apr 22, 2007 0:57:15 GMT -5
That's DC's fault. Terra II was never destined to be a character that sold books, but she could have been a great supporting character if someone at DC had just taken the time to use her. The mystery of whether she was or wasn't the original and the idea she's living her life to make up for the evil the first one was.... I liked that dynamic.
It annoys me that DC could easily have just written her out of continuity as the did with Arrowette, instead they kill her off just because someone at editorial deamed her inconveinent to have around.
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 1:20:21 GMT -5
Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 1:20:21 GMT -5
That's DC's fault. Terra II was never destined to be a character that sold books, but she could have been a great supporting character if someone at DC had just taken the time to use her. The mystery of whether she was or wasn't the original and the idea she's living her life to make up for the evil the first one was.... I liked that dynamic. It annoys me that DC could easily have just written her out of continuity as the did with Arrowette, instead they kill her off just because someone at editorial deamed her inconvenient to have around. Great point indeed. There will always be fans out there waiting for characters they like to be given a story that truly justifies the characters worth in their eyes. Everyone has at least one character that fits that description. I remember when a new Suicide Squad was going to be in Superboy and I was excited for their return. I had a chance to ask Superboys writer, Ron Marz what his plans were with them. He said: "Nothing more then a plot device. I never liked the group when they had their own title."Ouch! As a fan it opened my eyes to a few things. Some characters are just plot devices so why would you expect anything more from the writers that end up using them in that way. Terra was brought back to life to serve as a plot device and was killed for the same reason. It sucks for her fans thats for sure because the story potential was always just below the surface. And for the record, she was the original Terra and not a shoddy future version. Lets try to remember that you may not care but someone else might. There are some big fans of Terra here. Sadly there was not someone at DC who saw it the same way. |
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 7:09:04 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 7:09:04 GMT -5
We are yakking about the Terra from the future of the "Team Titans"?
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 9:34:41 GMT -5
Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 9:34:41 GMT -5
We are yakking about the Terra from the future of the "Team Titans"? Really Charlie? Prove it! |
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 10:05:19 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 10:05:19 GMT -5
Lol!
JAY! GET OVER HERE!
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 10:15:18 GMT -5
Post by Romans Empire on Apr 22, 2007 10:15:18 GMT -5
I was being half-serious. She was the original Terra. I have the issue here somewhere. So prove to me that she wasn't! |
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*52
Apr 22, 2007 10:20:31 GMT -5
Post by HoM on Apr 22, 2007 10:20:31 GMT -5
Team Titans is another Titans spin-off. The series ran from 1992 to 1994 in 24 issues and two annuals. One of only several Team Titans from the future, they function as a terrorist cell fighting against a world dictator, Lord Chaos, the son of Donna Troy and Robert Long. Sent ten years into the past, their mission is to kill Donna Troy and prevent his birth. Killowat, Redwing, Dagon, Prestor Jon and Battalion are all erased from existence during the 1994 Zero Hour storyline and the series was cancelled. Mirage, Terra and Deathwing survive; it is established that they are from the current timeline. Mirage and Terra join the main Titans team and Deathwing is enthralled by an evil aspect of Raven and turns against the Titans. Ok, I wiki'd it and that's what came up. So if wikipedia says that's true, then I concede to my mistake. Now, Jay, or John, explain to me how Terra can be from the "current timeline" if she died, evil and unhinged in the 80s?
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